<p>hahaha
i think if he is chinese though, he does have a point:
Studies have shown that in university admissions when URMs are admitted, they usually take the spot of a much more qualified asian-american while the effect on caucasians is neutral. This means that applying to universities at any level, undergraduate or post-graduate is hugely disadvantageous to Asians.
Is this fair? I am all for affirmative action, but I think it should be done on the basis of socio-economic status. Who 'needs' the admission bump more? The poor Korean/Chinese whos parents run a tiny grocery in LA or the upper-middle class african american?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is this fair? I am all for affirmative action, but I think it should be done on the basis of socio-economic status. Who 'needs' the admission bump more? The poor Korean/Chinese whos parents run a tiny grocery in LA or the upper-middle class african american?
[/quote]
Nah, that would make too much sense.</p>
<p>The US is teeming with African-American Middle Class the way most in this forums people talk. The basic fact is that a large number of african-americans would qualify for affirmative action if it is done using socio-economic factors and probably more than the usual number now. Have you ever been to Mississippi or North Carolina? Where is the mythical large black middle-class community that most people always claim that are taking the places of the poor korean/chinese student?</p>
<p>^ There was a study done (located on JSTOR.org, can't recall the name at the moment) about affirmative action based purely on socioeconomic factors, and not race. Research from this study showed that AA based purely on socioeconomic factors would primarily benefit poor whites, not URMs.</p>
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[quote]
The US is teeming with African-American Middle Class the way most in this forums people talk.
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Not really, just the ones that actually get into top tier colleges. In fact, virtually all the students at top tier colleges are upper middle class - Asian, White, Hispanic, Black.</p>
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The basic fact is that a large number of african-americans would qualify for affirmative action if it is done using socio-economic factors and probably more than the usual number now.
[/quote]
Right now ALL african-americans qualify for affirmative action. So you are saying that there are more low income african americans than there are total african americans? Right.</p>
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Where is the mythical large black middle-class community that most people always claim that are taking the places of the poor korean/chinese student?
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Are you seriously trying to argue that middle-class african americans don't benefit from affirmative action? They obviously do. College admissions at elite colleges are zero-sum. Someone gets in, someone doesn't get in. It's been determined that Asians have a significantly higher bar to clear. If this "bar" was equal, then yeah, more asians and less URMs.</p>
<p>Do you attend a top school Mr Payne? Most of the African Americans I know aren't Middle Class. So what you are saying is that every Middle-Class black gets into top schools through affirmative action? Also not all students at top schools are virtually Middle-class, around 50-65% which is not "virtually all"- Judging from students who get finaid at top schools. </p>
<p>What I meant was that the large Middle-Class African-American society is non-existent. Whether you like it or not African-Americans are usually in the low income range due to discrimination. Therefore even if socio-economic factors are brought into play- affirmative action will end up favoring african-americans. I am sure you are not stupid enough to believe that all African Americans get into top school through affirmative action and the other group who do probably would get in through socio-economic factors depending on the specific definition of socio-economic factors. </p>
<p>Yeah if the bar was equal then the number of asian-americans would be higher. But affirmative action was included for a reasons best known to college administrators and in a way does not prevent any asian from attending a top school. Because an asian student got rejected at yale as result of affirmative action and has to end up at cornell then his life is over? Also, I think a large influx of Asians wouldn't be a good idea in American colleges because knwoing America's history of discrimination this would definitely raise eyebrows in admission offices and the bar would be made higher without affirmative action so everything evens out. It is the position of society that brought about affirmative action, don't blame african-americans blame society.
Anyway not everyone listens to logic and if everyone did the world would be a better place. People here would still come to complain about affirmative action even though it has nothing to do with them and they have never really considered why it was implemented.</p>
<p>Well my point was that making AA based on socio economic status would make it fairer, rather than saying that there is a huge african-american middle class taking away spots from poor asians. Sorry if I came off as bitter.
Yes, because of the demographic makeup of the country, african-americans and hispanics would still benefit disproportionately from AA done by socio economic status. However, if people knew that AA was not done by race, woudn't you think that there would be less bitterness all around?
African-Americans would have the benefit of knowing that their place at elite institutions was not simply because of his skin color while other groups that may have grown up in disadvantaged environments would get a boost in admissions too.</p>
<p>I agree making AA based on socioeconomics is fairer but making it according to socioeconomic status would not change anything much. The Asians that would benefit the most from such a system would be mostly Vietnamese, Cambodians e.t.c and not East Asians. Most of the East Asian community are Middle class. I don't want to sound elitist or anything and I am not saying south asian immigrant in the US are poor but from demographics this would be the case</p>
<p>^ Actually changing AA to be based solely on socioeconomic status WOULD change a lot. As I said earlier, studies have shown that whites would replace URMs and white enrollment would increase. The purpose of AA today is purely to increase URM enrollment. Issues of socioeconomic status come second.</p>
<p>You keep referring to some obscure studies. Which studies? And how did the studies define socio-economic status?</p>
<p>I can't access jstor.org at the moment as I'm not at my university's library and didn't set up a proxy server, but if you can access jstor, search for "race, socioeconomic status, affirmative action." It will come up with a study that compiled data from university admissions controlling for race. I read it while doing research last semester for a course. I won't define it until I can access jstor, but trust me, I know what I read. I remember because I was surprised at the results, but in retrospect it shouldn't be too surprising as most of America is Caucasian. There are probably more poor whites than poor URMs. So theoretically speaking whites would benefit from AA based purely on socioeconomic status alone due to sheer numbers.</p>
<p>To be sincere I have better things to do like finish my 20-paged history paper due in 5 hours. I am sure however that when I read it I would probably find their definitions of socio-economic status to be totally different from mine. But then poor whites also have it better than Middle-class blacks in terms of socioeconomic relationships. Have you ever read Michael Moore's stupid white men? Not a fan of Moore but his prayer on the last page reminded me of people who are always complaining about affirmative action.</p>
<p>Their definition may be different to yours. I believe the authors were economists so they probably took a very quantitative viewpoint and status was probably defined by salary, assets, etc. But if AA were defined purely on socioeconomic status, and not race, then AA would probably also be defined quantitatively (like in the study). Adcomms would not be able to take socioeconomic relationships that are race-sensitive into account.</p>
<p>Anyway, good luck finishing that paper! All-nighter?</p>
<p>Yeah all-nighter. I have another ten-paged paper due tomorrow. i am just going to skip class and tell my professor I went for a cancer-screening test.</p>
<p>Ouch. Another paper? But yeah, all-nighters suck. Every semester I tell myself I'm going to change, but it never happens. </p>
<p>Nice excuse haha. My university is huge and doesn't care about us, so if we skip class nobody notices. I think 50% of the students in my classes consistently skip lol.</p>
<p>Well my class has like 15 students and my professor knows me very well. Missing a class is going to have an impact on my grade</p>
<p>Ah, I see...good excuse then. Just drink tons of red bull and good luck!</p>
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What I meant was that the large Middle-Class African-American society is non-existent. Whether you like it or not African-Americans are usually in the low income range due to discrimination.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think what Mr. Payne is saying is that the majority of black students at the elite private universities come from middle/upper-middle class backgrounds and/or have parents w/ higher education (hence the reason why black immigrants make up 40% of the black student body at Ivy League universities).</p>
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Most of the East Asian community are Middle class.
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</p>
<p>Not true.</p>
<p>The black immigrants you are talking about usually have high enough scores to get into top schools on their own merit. Most of the arguments people make usually sound as if every minority got in through affirmative action. No one discusses the percentage of minorities that actually get accepted on their own meirt. The large majority of the majority of black middle class students had scores that could get them into those school while the rest benefited from affirmative action. Why I argue this is because, as I mentioned I attend a top school- not the best of the best but one of the best- and I have met people from other top schools.</p>
<p>I seriously don't understand why anyone has qualms with affirmative action. A small percentage of the school gets into the school because of AA- like say 5-6% max (I have to think like all the ignorant people here that like 1-2% get into top school on merit) of African American actually get in on merit. Another 4-5% for Hispanics. Leave the legacy students out. A large number of the top athletes that are recruited are African-American so within the 5-6% of accepted students a large number of athletes. 10% of a school gets their student body through a system that is seen as "unfair" by "qualified students." So a typical freshman class has 50-60 students who got in through AA. The number of dumb-assed people that I see in my classes far outweigh this number and my class of a 100 usually has like 5 minorities max.</p>
<p>Seriously, what is the problem? That is why I told one of the posters so what?<br>
None of you would probably remember this when you become senile.</p>
<p>I am not arguing that it is necessarily bad thing that african-americans benefit from affirmative action. </p>
<p>The fact is, that reverse discrimination is still discrimination and discrimination always causes bitterness. The consensus is clear that usually, Asian-Americans are rather disadvantaged in college admissions. The experiences of elite public schools (UCLA, UC Berkeley) after state-mandated phase-out of affirmative action tells the story (african-american and hispanic enrollment plummetted while Asian-American enrollment soared). The fact of the matter is, in the zero-sum game that is school admissions, oftentimes Asians are the losers. </p>
<p>I can't say how many times I hear from my fellow high school seniors: "I would have gotten into (insert school here) if I was black/hispanic". </p>
<p>Obviously this is not always true: the student might be trying to cover up her shortcomings by blaming AA. However, the fact that AA exists has created resentment, sometimes bordering on racism amongst my classmates. "She got into UCLA only because she is black" or derisive comments such as "How did he get into (insert school)? Oh, he's black" are heard often among Asian and even whites. </p>
<p>When Affirmative action creates such unneeded resentment between ethnic groups, everyone loses.</p>