<p>I am looking for advice from other parents out there who might be dealing with same problem, or any kind of suggestion because i am not sure how to handle this. I have a very unhappy child! Unhappy with herself, and the place she's at. My D is a freshman at the Honors college at our State University. The problem started after she did not gain admission to any of the 7 top schools she applied to. Despite working hard her entire life, having a 4.79 GPA, 2350 SAT1, 760-780 on three SAT2 tests, having 8 AP classes all passed with 5, rank no1 in her HS class of 890 students and playing violin at conservatory level, being concert mistress of school orchestra and state festivals, founder and editor in chief of her HS Music magazine....She had a very difficult summer, feeling defeated and not rewarded for her work. We tried to look at what we maybe didn't concentrate on as part of her application and that was community work. Other than concerts at local nursing homes and volunteering her help for an inner city kids orchestra, she didn't have much. Time is limited when you try to keep your school work close to perfection! I tried to make her understand that there are probably thousands of kids who were as smart and committed to hard work as she was who didn't make it into any of their dream schools, but to her this is still the biggest defeat of her life... So we got over the hump of settling into the new school/ dorm/ class schedule. But nothing got better. She hates the school party atmosphere, the only entertainment there being the frat parties with lots of drinking... she doesn't feel like she belongs in there. She is now taking 3 honors classes and still feels the level of intellectual stimulation is not where she would like it to be. She has a 4.0 GPA so far, without pushing herself. She got involved in Physics research, student counsel, Spanish club, orchestra...etc. But nothing gets better. She cries every day, feels alone and cannot connect with that place, feels bitter. We always taught her that hard work pays off and now she feels it didn't in her case. No matter how much we tell her that this is just a FIRST step in life, not the definitory step... it doesn't bring a smile on her face. She is asking about transfer... But I am soooo afraid that it will just open the door for more rejections and I'm not sure how she would handle it, again. She will be viewed as still the " well tutored, organically fed" white upper class kid, who's accomplishments are more a matter of having opportunities rather than personal merit. We didn't use a college admission professional to help with her application and I am not sure that would have made a difference. Would that be advisable now, if she truly wants to contemplate a transfer? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>Well, first–you are right that she is not alone. But it still hurts, I’m sure. </p>
<p>I am guessing the schools that rejected her were HYPSM and a couple of others of a similar caliber. Were there any other options in between–schools that maybe she got accepted to that were a notch down in terms of prestige but where she might have been happier? The reason I ask is that I think those types of schools would be better bets for a transfer than the super-selective ones that rejected her the first time and only take a tiny number of transfer students each year.</p>
<p>I think that your daughter’s feelings are legitimate and natural, but I also think that looking in the rear view mirror is sometimes self-defeating. I think it’s important to have a dream life, not a dream school, and there are many paths to attaining that dream life. It’s crucial that college admissions not be used as a yardstick to measure one’s life because it’s often out of your control. </p>
<p>I think it would be good if she could transfer to a school that will challenge her more academically. </p>
<p>I also think it would be beneficial for her to get some therapy to provide support to guide her through these difficult times. </p>
<p>I don’t know what your financial situation is. How much can you afford to pay?</p>
<p>Would you mind saying what state university we’re talking about? </p>
<p>A couple of specific ideas involving looking for colleges that are much harder to get through (i.e. more rigorous) than to get into. </p>
<p>1) William & Mary is reputed to be much easier to get into as a transfer student.
2) Reed College is a brutally rigorous LAC that shuns US News ratings and thus it’s not that difficult to get into.
3) University of Rochester is a great school, not that difficult to get into, with access to a great conservatory and is filled with students who are musically inclined who are not in the conservatory. It’s fairly academic and isn’t a party school.
4) University of Toronto is a very large public school, but is known to not be a party school and has been reported to be quite intellectual. If you’re on the west coast, I think University of British Columbia has a similar feel.
5) Oberlin and Lawrence also have conservatories and she might like those too.
6) Another option is to apply to schools in the UK. While the deadline for Oxford or Cambridge has already passed, I believe that the other schools like Imperial College London, Durham, St Andrews and Edinburgh are still taking applications. The English and Scottish systems are a little different though. Since she will have a year of college, it might be more appropriate to enter the English schools which are really equivalent to the last 3 years of college rather than the Scottish schools which are more like US in that they are 4 years. If that option interests her, she can do some research to find which universities have what she wants. </p>
<p>The key about Canadian or UK schools is that they don’t look at ECs at all. UK schools don’t even look at your grades, just your test scores. </p>
<p>I didn’t mention McGill because while that’s also a great school, it does have a lot more partying and is the most popular school for Americans in Canada, but that might be a decent option also.</p>
<p>I think it’s important that she get the next one right though.</p>
<p>What kind of financial constraints do you have? And other than the state U where she’s attending- what match type schools did she apply to???</p>
<p>As Sally so aptly noted, the best type of school for her to focus on is a school which takes a reasonable number of transfers and where her “package” will be highly appealing. And from her perspective- have the kind of environment she’s looking for.</p>
<p>So Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, Smith, Mt Holyoke; Muhlenberg, Lawrence, Beloit; Pomona, Rice, Rhodes. None of these are party-hearty schools; all of them have a fair number of intellectually oriented students (music scene is stronger at some than at others). Did she look at any of these kinds of schools last go round??? And was her HS guidance counselor any help at all?</p>
<p>Without knowing the specifics of where she applied and what your geographic or financial constraints might be (and not knowing which State U your D is at) it’s hard to say whether you need a professional’s help. If you live in Great Neck or Winnetka or Belmont and your D applied to Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Columbia etc. with your State U as her safety then you don’t need a professional, you just need more schools. If your D applied to Cornell, Dartmouth, Middlebury, Bates, Bowdoin, Lehigh and Smith and you live in Iowa then you may need to consider a professional if you’re D is determined to transfer. In the first case, your D suffered from being compared to kids with similar profiles from similar towns and high schools with a list of only 7 schools which reject huge numbers of qualified kids. In the second case, your D should have been admitted to one, two or three of a more balanced list of schools.</p>
<p>Can your D stick it out through the end of the year???</p>
<p>I was also wondering whether she applied to any schools “in between” the top 7 and the flagship. Was there college counseling available at her high school? Seems like someone with her stats and talent should have had many options. I do not agree that it was the lack of community service, as the concerts at the local nursing homes and the assistance with the inner city orchestra certainly demonstrated community involvement.</p>
<p>Your daughter sounds like a hard working and talented young woman. If she is that unhappy, I would listen to her concerns and help her facilitate a transfer. I also second the recommendation to take a look at William and Mary. I think it is one of the most underrated colleges in the U.S. There is very little Greek life and what does exist is more community oriented than the party scene. The students are a pretty serious bunch and the professors have impressive backgrounds. While it may not have the “name” she is looking for, I think it could be a much better fit than where she is currently attending.</p>
<p>She doesn’t feel rewarded for her high SAT+GPA. She also easily gets a 4.0 at Honors college without pushing herself. I would say she is getting the 4.0 because of her hard work at SAT+GPA. So there was a reward to her high school work. It is paying off in this case. But sure, I’d transfer.</p>
<p>It’s hard to respond without knowing which schools she was rejected from in the first instance. A number of my D’s classmates with excellent credentials applied to HYPS and other Ivy schools as well as the state or other safety school. Most were not accepted to the HYPS schools. The difference I see between them and your D is that they applied to schools in between, so that these kids aren’t attending their safeties, but instead are at Wake Forest or Grinnell or Rice or Wash U, etc. Did your D apply to those types of schools or limit herself to the tippy top? If she didn’t apply to schools in that next tier down, then I’d suggest that she look into their transfer rates and find a school that’s a good fit for her that accepts transfers. It doesn’t sound like she’s going to be happy at the school she’s attending, so I see little point in her remaining there. There are a LOT of great schools in between Harvard and State U and your D is probably a great transfer candidate at many of them.</p>
<p>The other thing for her to consider, is just to take some time off. A leave of absence from the current U and a gap semester before heading back next fall might be all it takes for her to pull herself together and move forward.</p>
<p>Wishing you all the best!</p>
<p>(((Hugs))) to OP.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t name the schools she’s at. If she transfers, she’ll be identifiable. However, it would be helpful to name the other schools to which she applied.</p>
<p>One thing going for her is that she’s maintaining a 4.0 and is involved on campus. It will make transferring easier, if that’s what she chooses to do.</p>
<p>Is she living in an honors dorm?</p>
<p>One thing to consider is that at large state colleges, the freshmen classes tend to be larger. If she came well prepared, then she is at the top of the class at her school. However, some of the kids who came to “party” won’t continue. Upper division classes tend to be smaller and more rigorous. If she chooses to stay with physics, those classes will certainly get more difficult. Since she isn’t overwhelmed with the academic load, she has more time to be involved with research and other accomplishments. She may end up being recognized as one of the top students in her department.
She’s an amazing student, but surely not the only one at this large state school. I hope she can find like minded peers. Since she’s not enjoying anything, I wonder about some depression. How much did she enjoy her academic pursuits- or was she focused on the goals? Perhaps with an easier schedule, she might take some time to explore other interests that she may enjoy. Her activities are academically focused so how about something like Zumba or art?. She can also join some social clubs just for fun, or connect through a religious group if that appeals to her.
I think a transfer is an option. As hard as it is, I wouldn’t want fear to limit her from pursuing her goals. Rejection hurts, but it’s a risk we all take. However, like college admission, it’s not guaranteed. She will have to have 2 plans- to transfer and also to make the most of it if she stays. The latter is a good idea even if she transfers since a transfer takes time.
If a student is unhappy, I think the counseling center is a good idea. It’s an objective professional to talk these things out with, it’s confidential and they can address any emotional issues.</p>
<p>Your D sounds a lot like my high schooler 4 years ago. However, mine decided not to apply to the Ivys as they were all “too big” and she disliked her visit with Dartmouth. She did apply to all small LACs and our state flagship. If it were my D, I would consider having a gap semester and reapplying to some match and a few reach schools. If you apply to some good safeties, I doubt there will be a bunch of rejections. However, you will need to decide on whether to apply as a freshman or a transfer. Many schools, especially top LACs, are more difficult to get in as a transfer. But, many of them love musicians.</p>
<p>She sounds like a great kid. Has she identified either (a) what she wants to study or (b) schools she would like to transfer to? </p>
<p>If she’s more-or-less decided that Current School is not a good fit, then she’s going to be “glass half full” about everything rather than making the best of it. Better in that case to transfer - maybe even take spring semester off - and start again in a better place (both geographically and in her head).</p>
<p>In my experience transfer acceptances are not as competitive. I know a number of students who transferred to much more academically competitive schools after a freshman year that didn’t satisfy them. (Mt Holyoke, Boston College, Wesleyan are a few of these, and in all cases, FA was as good or better as at the original school) I would encourage her to apply to transfer.</p>
<p>But–I also think she needs some counseling. It’s hard, at that age, to understand what can seem like a catastrophic failure. But anyone who is still heartbroken to the point of daily crying, needs a helping hand. She sounds wonderful and she will succeed-- she already has!!! I hope she finds what she’s looking for next time around.</p>
<p>Thank you for all encouraging posts. She got rejected form Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and waitlisted at UPenn, Princeton and Johns Hopkins. Our situation was somewhat different because of her interest in violin performance. Basically we only looked at schools which had a conservatory caliber music program and were very rigorous academically. Other schools we considered were Bucknell, NYU and Boston University. I think our lack of experience with the admission process led to no real midlevel schools between reaches and safeties. In the beginning of the school year I called the school counselor and asked for advice. She basically told me that, with my D’s stats and overall work ethic/ attitude no schools would be reaches, she would be a fit for anything she dreams of. Looking back, i wish I questioned that. My D wanted to be close to home, just a few hours drive and in a big city with vibrant cultural life…hence our choices. Financial considerations played no role in the schools choices we made. At her current school she is pursuing a major in Physics and minor in violin performance. I do believe that her initial disappointment made for the glass being now half empty, no matter what she encounters there. Since our specifics have not changed, she would be basically looking at same schools as she did initially and that is why we hesitate to encourage the transfer idea. The Physics program at her current school is actually in the top 20 in the country and we tried to reassure her that would be pretty strong later on, when she applies for grad school.</p>
<p>I’m surprised that Rochester didn’t make your initial list too. While it’s Physics department might be a slightly lower in rankings, it’s still in the top 30, it’s much more undergraduate focused, intellectual, and Eastman is no slouch in terms of conservatories. It think she’d find the students to be more serious. I think she would be more likely to be happier there than where she currently is, and at the end of the day, isn’t that what really matters? Also, I think it’s a step up from NYU and BU academically, and though of course BU has a great physics department, even my neighbor who is in that department doesn’t think it’s a great place for an undergraduate student like your daughter. </p>
<p>On her initial list, I think Johns Hopkins was a match (meaning around 50%). The others were reaches for everyone.</p>
<p>You are describing my now junior college girl to a T. She was accepted everywhere she applied …except her dream school. She was waitlisted…and hung onto that waitlist. Till June. Then the spots were full, and she had already committed to a full ride at our state school. She went, she was miserable, felt like the classes were too easy. She also had a full vocal scholarship…but hated being a music major. She did a LOT of growing that year. But she cried every day, and we had daily conversations, hundreds of texts. It was so hard for me to see my daughter who had been the in the #7 in a class of 480, all-state singer and never made a B kid just miserable. So we told her to apply as a transfer student to her dream school. She did the work…she got involved at her college, made straight As and got great recommendations from professors. She was accepted. She transferred, we took to hit in money and I can tell you 100% it’s worth every penny. Now she’s a neuroscience major, pre-med and wants to be a doctor. But she still has incredible music opportunities where she is, which is a huge bonus! She loves it there, she has grown so much, has the group of friends I always hoped and the opportunities she has dreamed about. I do think because of her rough year, she apprciates her new school so much more. Not that she wouldn’t have before…it’s just she’s so grateful because she knows what it’s like somewhere else. If it’s within your means, I would strongly encourage you to have her apply. Now our youngest goes there…she got in ED last year and they are the happiest, and most challenged I’ve ever seen them.</p>
<p>If the program is top 20 in the country she may not find more rigorous work anywhere. What classes is she taking? Are they classes that she has already completed in HS (eg Physics 101 after taking AP physics)?</p>
<p>Perhaps after she gets through the 101 courses there will be more challenge.</p>
<p>Many of the more selective LACs would love a strong musician. Unfortunately, they don’t always take many transfers. Here are some suggestions of northeastern schools with strong performing groups to check out. We have heard orchestras at Vassar (just attended the orchestra concert there Saturday and once again it was excellent - the strings are really strong this year), Wesleyan (smaller orchestra - but very,very good), Hamilton (was a surprise - a full student orchestra and they sounded great), BU (has many grad students and is awesome), Skidmore (very good), Williams (heard the concert band and it was excellent), and Bard (sounded great). We know someone who attended Swarthmore and played very challenging music in their orchestra for 4 years. We also know someone who had a great experience in the Brandeis music department. Of course Rochester should also be on the list. Some of our visits were a few years ago so check the websites for video casts of performances. Vassar posts the majority of their concerts and others may also. I hope this helps you identify schools which have conservatory level (or close to it) music opportunities and strong academics.</p>
<p>Violinmama, like chemusic, I think a selective LAC is ideal for honing music talent and serious academic study. Swarthmore is great for individual music attention and physics. Williams has a great physics program and the most talented musicians have the opportunity to play for the Berkshire symphony. Oberlin seems almost ideal for her. I’m sure there are more many examples.</p>
<p>Violinmama,
As you now know, you received very poor advice from the school guidance counselor. Most of the schools you mentioned are reaches for every high school senior. It’s hard to realize that there are literally thousands of students with statistics comparable to your very talented daughter. It doesn’t sound like her current situation is the proper academic fit for her. She needs to find “her people.” If she and are you at the point that you would consider a university out of the area, Northwestern, outside of Chicago, has a very strong academic program in physics and a music school. It is highly competitive academically.</p>
<p>I also agree with GTAlum that perhaps your daughter should consider a highly selective liberal arts college like Swarthmore or Williams. Williams is a bit isolated if she is really set on being near an urban environment, but Swarthmore is a 22 minute train ride from the foot of campus into Philadelphia. These two schools are also highly competitive and only admit about 15% of freshmen applicants. They take some transfers. Just as your daughter needed some slightly lower tier schools in her original group, she will need them as a transfer, too. You’ve been given a number of great schools to check out already, so I won’t overwhelm you with many more. Best of luck to your daughter. Let her try to finish her academic year strongly at the state university and she will be a compelling transfer candidate.</p>