<p>I want to put it out there…I don’t know about Cornell’s music program, but they do take a lot of transfers. Cornell is ranked #7 for Physics after Princeton and Berkeley. They do a very good job of integrating transfers.</p>
<p>Thank you all for advice. Moonpie, i got tears in my eyes reading your reply. So maybe there is hope thisngs will work out for my D too. I feel more encouraged to look into a transfer now. Swarthmore is an option we’ve been talking about, also Carnegie Mellon, Bard and possibly Rochester. D studied with a violin professor from Eastman for two summers at a music festival, and she really loved the music scene there. I wish she would consider Oberlin, but that is a little too far from home. Dreadpirit, she now takes Physics 211 Honors, and will take 212 H next semester. She always embraces challenges, so we just hope to find a good fit for her.</p>
<p>Did your daughter ever consider Rice? Not sure about the details on transfers and applying to the Shepherd School of Music, but you might want to check it out.</p>
<p>OP said dd doesn’t want to be far from home.</p>
<p>I am sorry about her experience and I encourage you to work on a transfer. It sounds like she may have a lot of good options.</p>
<p>It’s interesting to hear this story. There are many people on this forum who say that a state honors college worked out well for their kid who might have been competitive for a top private college but chose the state school for financial or proximity reasons. I’m a little surprised there isn’t at least a small community of very like-minded kids she’s been able to connect with in the honors college. Also interesting that she finds the honors curriculum not challenging enough.</p>
<p>OP- big hugs. You got bad advice but as you well know, your D’s life isn’t over at age 18 even though it may feel that way.</p>
<p>I think it will help your D to drill down on the “what’s got to give” department, if she’s serious about a transfer. I think the posters here could give you a list of about 30 schools with the right geography and the right intellectual vibe… but perhaps not conservatory level violin (but strong performance opportunities nonetheless.) We could give you another 20 schools where your D would find like minded students and could do violin and physics… but are outside of her preferred geography. Etc.</p>
<p>So before we all overwhelm you (as we probably have already) by suggesting schools which would likely be a better social/intellectual fit, your D may be well served by figuring out what she’s prepared to compromise. Some of the schools which might be a fantastic match take so few transfers that its another crap shoot (like her original list) so perhaps not worth the angst and the time; others would be very eager to have your D but are perhaps too far away for her comfort zone.</p>
<p>The fact that she’s doing well academically is of course, of paramount importance, so keep encouraging her to focus on where she is in order to get to a better place.</p>
<p>And Q for you- has your D encountered engineering at all? A lot of physics kids are very focused on physics because they loved it in HS… but figure out quickly in college that they are looking for less theory and more hands-on. If engineering is a possibility that will change the mix of schools on her list (potentially) but a strong female engineering prospect with strong musical talent has some very good options admissions-wise.</p>
<p>If she wanted Columbia, she should also look at Barnard. She could still take classes at Columbia and graduate with both Barnard and Columbia on her diploma. NYC, great music opportunities, excellent academics.
And don’t wait to make the move. If she can’t get it completed by the Spring semester, I would take a gap semester and apply for next year. (If she is that unhappy at her current school).</p>
<p>
Honors colleges vary in quality, selectivity, and rigor. There are some outstanding ones, but other very subpar ones which do not hold a candle to most top 50 LACs. There are many reasons for this, most of which are not worth discussing in this thread. It seems clear that the OP and her daughter should look for schools where the densities of very bright, highly motivated students are high, and the professors recognize this so they adjust their expectations accordingly.</p>
<p>Hindsight is always a lot clearer; so, yes, she should have applied to some schools a tad below her reaches. If she is that unhappy, a change might be good but will it be the same at a new school? Is the root of her unhappiness that she didn’t get into the Harvard’s of the world or is it the school she is at right now. She wouldn’t want to transfer and end up just as unhappy. She does need to address the true reason for her unhappiness.</p>
<p>Remember that a lot of schools the first semester quite easy for those with good high school preparation. They need to get everyone up to the same level. It will get harder as the year progresses. </p>
<p>One thing that did strike me in your original post is the statement referring to her college activities that “She got involved in Physics research, student counsel, Spanish club, orchestra…etc”. Sounds like a classic laundry list of activities issue. I am not an admissions person, but whenever I see a laundry list of ECs, I think that the person is just a “joiner” with no depth of commitment. Not what I would consider a good thing. IF she had something similar on her college apps, it may have raised a red flag. Better to make a true commitment to an activity or two and really make a difference in those organizations.</p>
<p>I’ve been thinking about this. </p>
<p>If your daughter is where I think she is, she is in just about the most prestigious honors college there is with an admissions difficulty comparable with the ivies. She did not get shut out of the competitive admissions process and she has nothing to feel ashamed about. </p>
<p>Yet of course this honors college is in a ginormous university with a party culture so legendary that they have been removed from Playboy’s national party school rankings because they are viewed as “professionals”. This does not appear to be the right “fit” for your daughter, and as a parent of a similar child, I sympathize. </p>
<p>While your daughter can stay there and persevere, I see the logic of your original list. I think that there are only a handful of schools that meet all of your criteria and she applied to most of them on the first round. Frankly, I’m a little surprised she didn’t get into Johns Hopkins. </p>
<p>Since she was waitlisted, it might be worth a personal call from her to the admissions office at Johns Hopkins to explain the situation and to see if there is any way to still get off the waitlist now. I do know they used their wait list this year. </p>
<p>I think it might be worth reapplying as a transfer to Penn and Johns Hopkins and it might be worth considering whether Rochester, Cornell, CMU, Brandeis, Swarthmore, Haverford, Bryn Mawr, Wesleyan, Wellesley or Vassar might be more appropriate. These are all schools on the list of top 50 baccalaureate origins of STEM PhDs.
<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/nsf08311.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/nsf08311.pdf</a></p>
<p>If she does decide to stay, I’m sure she’ll eventually find her crowd as I know there are other like minded students there.</p>
<p>“whenever I see a laundry list of ECs, I think that the person is just a “joiner” with no depth of commitment. Not what I would consider a good thing. IF she had something similar on her college apps, it may have raised a red flag. Better to make a true commitment to an activity or two and really make a difference in those organizations.”</p>
<p>Everyone on this forum says this. I think it’s ridiculous. How many 30, 40-year olds find themselves making career transitions? Yet we expect 14 year olds entering high school to already have figured out a life path (from what experience, exactly, considering the limited opportunities they probably had before high school) and join only those activities which shape them into the perfectly focused “ideal” student? When exactly do they get to explore their interests? What’s wrong with joining the Spanish club because they enjoy Spanish and their friends are in it? Must they be planning to major in Spanish, set up a statewide Spanish tutoring program, and do a year abroad in Spain with the goal of becoming a Spanish professor to justify setting foot in a Spanish club? Who exactly is going to join and participate in all the clubs we insist our “leaders” establish if we tell the kids it’s bad to join things just to explore an interest or just for fun? All we’d have would be those hokey student clubs which consist only of the officers, formed only for the purpose of impressing colleges. Nothing more. I fear many kids are getting the idea they have to have their life figured out by the time they start high school and aren’t allowed to explore their interests or simply try to connect with like-minded kids, as I expect the OP’s daughter was trying to do in some of these clubs. </p>
<p>The OP’s daughter has chosen a difficult and heavily-male dominated field in which she is excelling. She has also excelled in music, something that I am sure took a huge amount of time and effort. How can you even suggest that this young lady has “no committment” simply because she decided to get out of her science and music bubble and experience a few other things in her life?</p>
<p>Agree wholeheartedly with mathyone. There is nothing wrong with the OP or how she has conducted her life, or even with her decision to attend her current institution. People need to be who they want to be not what colleges expect to see. </p>
<p>The problem here is that the Honors College is not living up to expectations a perhaps and change of scenery will be beneficial.</p>
<p>agree 100% with Mathyone, and OP, you should not think that your D’s application was deficient in any way. It’s just a numbers game, compounded by geography and a furiously competitive admissions environment.</p>
<p>Anyone who sees “joiner” in her EC’s doesn’t understand the level of commitment she has demonstrated to her music. I’m sure she has dedicated countless hours to that endeavor and her various related activities clearly demonstrate that passion and the community involvement. </p>
<p>Your family should not beat yourselves up for lack of community work - I really doubt that was the issue with the application. Assuming her recommendations were great (some teachers just aren’t very good at writing them) and her essays were well thought out, it is much, much more likely that she was a victim of math. </p>
<p>Think of it this way. Let’s say the 7 schools accept 35% of students like your d (which is probably an gross overestimation). That means that for each of the schools there is a 65% of being declined. And thus for the group of 7 it would be (.65)^7 or about 5% of students with her credentials would be declined from all 7. If you bring the 35% down to a more likely 20%, the probability of not getting into any of the 7 jumps to about 20%!</p>
<p>To spin it further, if the honors college is what I (and CRD?) think it is, she actually got fairly lucky she was accepted there as accept rates are near Ivy levels and SAT scores are ignored in the process.</p>
<p>Many, many students are unhappy with their schools. It is probably especially likely when they feel disappointed with their choices. Perhaps a change of scenery is best for her.</p>
<p>ClassicRockerDad, thank you for your post. You figured our school situation correctly. Is the larger school scene where she feels she doesn’t belong. Most kids, even the ones in the honors program still prefer to go to parties all weekend nights and there isn’t much of old movies, talking about great books, attending concerts or discussing the big issues of the day… which is what she loves to do. We know music takes up a lot of her time, every week she has 4 hours of orchestra , 4 hours of quartet, individual practice and lessons…but she loves music. She will give up orchestra in the second semester just to have more time for Physics research. She is interested in astrophysics and particle physics and the research is about ultra high energy cosmic rays in collaboration with Auger Observatory from Argentina. We really hope this is going to provide the challenge and intellectual stimulation she needs, also connecting her with motivated and focused students she can relate to.</p>
<p>As far as ECs, as generic as they might seem, it’s not easy to get started as a freshman. She loves Spanish ans Spanish culture so between zumba, Spanish cooking… i thought that would be a fun place to try to make some friends. The Student Council came along because she is such a type A personality, very good at organizing activities and her school is big into charity work. Getting leadership position as a freshman is not easy.You have to put in the hours of work and show commitment. Which is what we encouraged her to do. </p>
<p>There was another very insightful post. We know that her current unhappiness has a lot to do with the initial disappointment… Not out of being a snob, but just feeling she was not rewarded for her hard work (she was also a National Merit Scholarship Winner). And that’s why we encouraged her to give this school a real chance before trying to transfer. It’s just hard, lots of worries as a parent, when you’re far and you know your child is in emotional turmoil.</p>
<p>When my D was a junior and senior in high school, she emailed some of her older friends who had started college on a fairly regularly basis. Almost all of them were unhappy about something freshman year. While she did it out of friendship, I think it was a valuable learning experience. She didn’t go off to college expecting Nirvana. </p>
<p>Does your D actually know any kids who are at the schools that rejected/wait listed her? I think if she did the grass might not be so green. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think all of them are wonderful colleges–they are–just that they are not perfect either. Sometimes, we idealize what we can’t have.</p>
<p>Agree completely with mathyone. Great post.</p>
<p>Violinmama, I was more concerned with the fact that even in the honors college, she’s not being challenged to her capacity academically, yet it sounds like she wants to be. </p>
<p>That’s ultimately the reason I think trying to transfer to a school that caters more to top students and offers accelerated courses would be beneficial. </p>
<p>I would expect your D to be in a course more like this
<a href=“School of Physics and Astronomy | College of Science and Engineering”>School of Physics and Astronomy | College of Science and Engineering;
<p>It doesn’t appear that Penn State’s honors courses in Physics go THAT much further than the regular courses, though it’s hard to tell from just the description in the catalog.</p>
<p>I would suggest not applying to any schools with conservatories or music schools, because musicians who are not in the BM program don’t get the same opportunities. Bard might be an exception. Barnard is a good idea. Tufts would be great (and even has a double degree program with NEC). Great science, great music department, almost city. Check with folks on the music forum for more ideas. I always like the “Colleges that Change Lives” (see website, also a book by Loren Pope).</p>
<p>Mathyone, I agree with you. However, it is a reality that the top colleges are looking for a well-rounded campus (as opposed to well-rounded individuals, though certainly there are many at Ivies) and tend to want to do that by assembling a campus of students with passionate interests. If this family was this focused on admissions to Ivies, then doing violin at a conservatory prep, lessons with a prestigious teacher, and participation in a well-known youth orchestra would have been the kind of thing they are looking for. Just for example. (Not saying I agree with this.)</p>
<p>I think it is good for people to know that too much focus on grades and scores is not that helpful w/some of these admissions. Great GPA’s and scores get you into the pool but not into the college. So, I think the idea behind the post about well-roundedness has merit in that sometimes accumulating activities to look well-rounded is a mistake and can show the shallowness cited. (Not saying that was true with the OP’s daughter at all.) If a kid wants to explore lots of interests during high school, I think that’s great, but it is still a reality that the most selective admissions committees are looking for more depth by the end of high school, and this family wanted a top college. </p>
<p>Honestly, I think it is healthier for teens to just live life and go to a college that admits and fits.</p>
<p>I can tell you first hand that there are many many unhappy students at Harvard at this very moment. This happens to freshmen everywhere. I have heard kids in a Harvard dorm plotting to leave during Christmas break, who are then happy by May. Many Harvard students use counseling services for anxiety and depression, just like anywhere else.</p>
<p>Harvard students party and don’t sit around talking about serious issues any more than students at a state university. Partying happens everywhere. Some top schools have a student body that “works hard, plays hard.” It takes time to find your people, more than a semester.</p>
<p>You know that Ivies have teaching assistants, right? I have had classes at our state university where professors actually teach a small class with discussion. It is hard to say where the best education occurs.</p>
<p>It is possible she will do those transfer applications and be happy by late spring (counseling might help). From her busy schedule, to me, it sounds like she is thriving, but I realize that outside activities are no measure of inner well-being. If she transfers, maybe she will have a happier experience, like the daughter of another poster.</p>
<p>“there isn’t much of old movies, talking about great books, attending concerts or discussing the big issues of the day”</p>
<p>In my experience the school that your D is looking for only exists in fiction. You can find sub-populations of kids who share your D’s interests but your D will need to work to seek out those groups no matter where she goes to school.</p>
<p>I asked before what classes she is taking. Look at why the classes are not challenging enough. If it is because they the required intro classes and/or it is material she has already covered, things will get better. She should have a frank discussion with her honors advisors, perhaps they can point her towards some of the more challenging higher level courses now that she has much of the intro work out of the way.</p>