Unhealthy Relationships, Version Two

Parents Forum
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<p>Blossom - so odd you should say that. I find that men tend to be the best people to turn to in a bad relationship - they see the problems and articulate the need to get out, while women might be too wrapped up in whatever. It is typically men who are most able to spot the problem boyfriends.</p>

<p>That does not, however, take away from your advice: get a father figure in there! Even the priest might be able to help more, esp. if he could meet Fred over a break with the daughter. Get SOME male perspective on this guy. They'll tell you if he's just irresponsible, or if he's bad news, or if he's a potential abuser.</p>

<p>Edit: ANY possibility of LateToSchool integrating some of these suggestions - get the male presence/opinion on the guy and work on not alientating him? Perhaps a dinner over at Late's place with the daughter, Fred, and a long-time guy friend, uncle, grandfather, or whatever.</p>

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<p>"Oh gosh... that's really out of my league. </p>

<p>Best advice I can give you... have her call the school's pre-med advisor, who would know way more than you or I would about this. The C+, and I don't care if she's at Cornell or MIT, is bad news for med school. </p>

<p>My best guess is that she should (eeek, you'll hate this) drop orgo now and just sit through the class. I know a lot of people who did that (faithfully attended class daily, took notes, did the work, just didn't take the tests) and ended up doign well the second time around. If she's not doing well in orgo I, orgo II will be worse - it's very cumulative material and requires a solid foundation all the way through. She could possibly re-take orgo I next year (if the school allows it) or after graduation, then orgo II immediately afterwards. If she takes orgo II next year and audits this year, she could also audit next year's orgo I (Plan: audit orgo II so she's seen the material; re-take or audit orgo I in the fall, then take orgo II for a grade spring '06). </p>

<p>MCAT would follow that. I don't know anything about timing of sitting for the MCAT - but, if she's not doing well in orgo, I can't see the benefit of sitting for it right afterwards.</p>

<p>But see what the pre-med advisor says."</p>

<p>Aries,</p>

<p>I think LTS means that her daughter already completed Orgo I with a C+. I think?</p>

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<p>Remember that CC does have a premed board with a Moderator/Doctor presiding.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>
[quote]
It's much, much harder to be the mother to a 21 year old young woman.

[/quote]

Because at that age you have to stop being "mother" and start being "friend" - hopefully the one, true friend that d. can always count on being there for her. It's hard.... but that is really why there are no parenting books about 21 year olds.</p>

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<p>its possible that she wouldhave had difficulty in ochem regardless
my daughter who was doing great @ reed with her bio major- found ochem was moving too fast and stuff she understood while meeting with her prof she forgot as soon as she got back to the dorm
AFTER she had so much trouble I have learned that many people who are now doctors either drastically cut their other credit hours while taking ochem- audited the class- then took it for credit- or took it in a huge stadium class that was graded on a curve and many didn't show up to take final.
She isn't in premed- but ochem is a req for bio major- it makes a big difference to be taking it by itself rather than along side psych/microbio/genetics</p>

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<p>I'm also an O-chem washout. I managed to pull a "B" the first quarter - but I realized that it was only through luck. I just didn't get it no matter how hard I studied, and then somehow the night before the final exam things came clear to me and everything seemed to make sense at exam time... but I couldn't have possibly explained how I figured it all out.</p>

<p>So I kept my B and gave up on my pre-vet major. I realized later (much later) that my personal learning style requires "gel" time -- I need to take some time off after studying in order for things to gestate in my mind, in order to make sense of them. But I didn't know that when I was an undergrad.... so I basically made things worse for myself by overstudying and trying to memorize too many things I didn't really understand.</p>

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<p>Bluealien: </p>

<p>yes, she did - you probably misunderstood me. </p>

<p>There are two semesters of orgo. D got a C+ in the first. That is waaaay too low for med school. So, one of two things has to happen: she should re-take the first semester for a higher grade, or live with the low grade and figure out how to ace second semester. Either way, she shouldn't be taking orgo now - because she's taking too many courses now and doesn't have a proper foundation.</p>

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<p>I feel for you, LTS: You're obviously a caring and concerned mom, and it must be hard to see your daughter so caught up in a relationship that seems unhealthy to you.</p>

<p>I honestly can't tell how much of a problem Fred is or might become. Either way, however, I'm afraid it is out of your hands. Your daughter is an adult, and you need to trust that the values you've taught her up to now will ultimately stand her in good stead. </p>

<p>A few days after her 18th birthday, my daughter injured her knee and needed an MRI, surgery, etc. It was a huge shock to me to realize that, while a mere week before, no doctor would even look at her without a parent's signature on a consent form, it was her signature that mattered now. While you do have the option of withholding your financial support if you don't like what she's doing, you can't necessarily stop her from making mistakes or from changing in ways that you wish she wouldn't. Med school is a worthy goal--but there could be any number of reasons, even aside from Fred, why it might not always be her goal. Similarly, you don't really know why her GPA is dropping, or what is going on with her old friends. </p>

<p>Whether or not your daughter has any interest in seeking counseling at this stage, a trained professional can help you sort through the issues so that you have the best chance of ending up with a strong relationship with your daughter.</p>

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<p>Some great advice here. I particularly like Blossom's wise observations.</p>

<p>Just in support, I'd like to suggest to LTS that her daughter is in an important learning process - learning what does and DOESN'T make a good relationship. Right now, she's enjoying Fred's energy and sponteneity. She's also learning how draining it is to be with a narcissistic personality. That's a much slower process that will serve her well in avoiding similar traps in future relationships. For me, having gone through a series of ego-involved boyfriends in different manifestations of neediness, getting together with my future husband was an incredible change. He was kind, supportive and interested in me, instead of in what I could do for him. The funny thing is that I knew him for a couple of years before I ever dated him, because I couldn't appreciate his good qualities until I had run the gauntlet with the spendthrifts, motherless childs and egomaniacs. </p>

<p>Don't forget that you and the rest of the parents here have been adults for many years, and being able to size up people quickly is the result of many first-hand disappointments. Your daughter is a fledgling adult, and has to withstand the bad and the good that relationships bring. If she has a good head on her shoulders, it is going to turn out for the best. Stay neutral, and let her learn things for herself.</p>

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<p>I have just skimmed the posts so I may have missed some of the details. I can share my experiences with you. My daughter's boyfriend from freshman year was not what I would call ideal. Had we known more about the relationship and his problems, we would have been ill that year, and reconsidered permitting her to return to the school. She did not share the info with us until after it all ended. She did end the relationship, and he started stalking her to a point where the campus and city police did have to intervene. He went to a college in the same city, but not the same school, so it was a bit easier than if he were a fellow student. I understand he has left school for a number of personal issues. </p>

<p>As for premed, getting into med school is still very difficult. Grab a graduate school issue of UN&WR and you can check out the numbers and the stats. MCATs and gpas are very important, and the numbers released are deflated, because of kids who get in with special circumstances that your D may not have. My niece's best friend from college did not get into any of the 20 or so med school where she applied, and she was a Cornell grad. She was forewarned as Cornell does have a premed committee that screens the med school apps, but her parents wanted her to try anyways. She has been doing graduate level work for several years now in hopes of getting someone to advocate her entry into any med school. MCATs are only good for 3 years so she would have had to retake them. Her scores were very high. Her problem was the "C" in Organic. She has taken a higher level course in the subect and done well in it, but she was not in med school the last I heard. </p>

<p>The MCAT prep course and taking the MCATs may be a good way for her to look long and hard at her profile and see where it stands among other premeds at her college. Some colleges have a committee system in recommending kids to med school, and if hers does, they will give a a realistic read on her chances. THey often do refuse to recommend kids to med school who do not have a chance of getting in, and that often is the slap in the face that awakens kids with the unrealistic goals.</p>

<p>My D tried to skip a year of college and get in through the relationship a med school has with her college. Even with a 4.0 average and the requisite (though right at that line) MCATs, she was waitlisted, which devasted her and her fiancee's plans for the next year. She is most unhappy now that she will have to do another year at a school that she feels she has outgrown in order to have a good solid chance at medical school. I believe her scores are too low to get into a school any other way, though I do know she has other apps out there. She is finding this a very rough road, and she hates having to toe the line when she feels it is unnecessary, but that is just the way it goes.</p>

<p>My D was such a wonderful girl growing up that it breaks my heart anytime an issue arises. But I have found that there really is not much one can do from a distance, and without the student's cooperation. I just try to keep the communication lines open, and help where I can.</p>

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<p>midwesterner - you have said much of value. Thank you.</p>

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<p>I didn’t want to highjack this thread but I wanted to respond to Jamimom’s daughter’s dilemma. Back in the stone ages my BIL had almost the same situation. He was at a small LAC and was almost done with his degree after 3 years. He tried to get into med schools but was not successful. He transferred to a large state university and was taking classes to become a chemical engineer and worked in a Chem Lab. He reapplied and was accepted early decision the next year. </p>

<p>Although he was deferred a year, everything worked out great. I hope the same will happen with your daughter. I know he felt the same way about his LAC. Transferring, having a back up plan and working was a great experience in the end.</p>

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<p>LTS-
I've thought a bit about all of this today, and wanted to share a few.</p>

<p>1) First of all, who is there as a support for you???? I am hopeful that you have close friends, family etc. that you can ventilate on or use as a sounding board. I cannot imagine how hard it is to be a single parent, and I have incredible respect for those of you who have done so. Just don't forget, you can't take care of others if you don't take care of yourself first.</p>

<p>2) This guy sounds extremely needy. As your daughter plans to go into a helping profession, she may find herself drawn by her desire to help others. However, as someone above mentioned, there is a need for boundaries. The difference between a caregiver and a caretaker is when you begin to do so at your own expense. That will be an important lesson for her to learn. (Maybe she should go into Pathology-- haha sorry for the pun...)</p>

<p>3) Both your daughter and Fred sound like they are used to juggling many balls in the air at once- she with premed classes, Div 1 sports, work, volunteer work, etc; He with school (and a good GPA) and 3 jobs. Sounds like everything they do, they do with intensity. Why would we expect their relationship to be handled any differently? Things that may look intense, or excessive to you and me may just seem like the norm to them. They are used to managing a lot. Their relationship may be, in their eyes, just one more thing in their hectic schedules. Yes, Fred sounds like a smothering pest. But does your daughter find his constant calls annoying, or does she, as we say in the south, pay them no nevermind? Does it bother her, or just you? Has she asked him not to call so often? I recall your saying that she told you if she did ask him not to call, he'd just call again later. Do we know for sure that she finds the frequency of his calls bothersome? If she hasn't told him directly, he may be clueless. As an aside, does your cellphone bill show both incoming and outgoing calls? How many is she making to him? You described lots of last minute invitations to fun places. Has she ever said no? Maybe he thinks she likes surprises. Who knows. We think differently than our young adult kids. Maybe your daughter thinks that this is her last opportunity at "fun" before she has to buckle down in med school. </p>

<p>4) Your concern that she is dropping one of the balls she is juggling (grades) is understandable. I will defer to all the folks knowledgeable about premed and med school admissions to comment about her grades and GPA. If you had planned to help defray the cost of the Kaplan MCAT prep course, you might continue to do so, but you might want to make it clear that you only plan to pay for this course once, so she may want to decide when that will be. I imagine she'll still plan to take it in her senior yr. to apply for med school right out of college. If she gets into med school, GREAT! If not, then working in the healthcare industry for a year while reapplying can be a learning experience, and if she plans to take another MCAT prep course, she'll be on her own financially. I know people who did not have the hectic schedule she does, but still didn't get into med school on the first attempt. But almost all of them did succeed later on (one chose to pursue nursing-- and that was a he). But one positive note. A good friend of mine from college did not get into med school on his first try. He worked for a yr at Sloan-Kettering and got into Hanneman on either his second or third try. And he met his wife while in med school. They practice together in the NE. There can be happy endings.</p>

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<p>Midwesterner, thank you. That helps a lot, and I agree with you. I do know that I did a very good job of raising her, and I just have to think she will pull of out of this on her own; I also do hope she has an outcome similar to yours. I too liked Blossom's post a lot. It provided what I needed most - information that can be put into action right away, and a precise example on how to behave. </p>

<p>Janimom, thank you for sharing this information. I am sorry to learn of what your daughter went through during her freshman year, but glad to know she resolved it. D also does know the very difficult numbers for med school admissions. She wants to be a trauma surgeon. I don't know how she's going to get it done, but (I really really like Blossom's post!!!!) I really don't want to know either. I'm not in that profession, it doesn't interest me even slightly, and the less I have to know about the details, the better. I am however very interested in my D's happiness, just as you are, and I'll support where I can, but from the appropriate position. One thing is certain - if the "why to" is right and good, the "how to" will happen. I'm guessing your D will be getting into med school very soon. Please let me know how it turns out? Mine is two years away at mimimum, given the second undergrad degree.</p>

<p>Jym -</p>

<ol>
<li> Single parenthood isn't exactly the life of stress, misery and hardship that everyone thinks it is. Shame on us if that's the example we have demonstrated for the rest of the world.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>I do have a broad and deep support system, however, I was (and am) reluctant to open this issue in RL, mostly because I do not want to be gossiping D's business and personal life to others in our community, or in our circle of friends, especially since I can't really know if there's anything serious to be concerned about yet. That would be horribly unfair to her, and potentially harmful to her reputation - I am certain that no young lady wants to have a mother running around talking about her personal affairs to close friends. If the situation were reversed, I would be mortified if she went to any of our friends saying "mom's dating this weird creep" - so it made sense to bring the issue here: an easily available forum, lots of balanced, educated parents with daughters and sons in the same age range; and I get to stay anonymous. Had I received responses that steered me towards an intervention decision, then I could of course engage my RL support system. Ariesathena may have something, and I would be foolish to disregard her input, but the evidence isn't all there, and may never be. </p>

<ol>
<li> You hit this one exactly right. I received more phone calls than I ever want to think about again during her freshman year: a teammate showed signs of anorexia, she's trying to save her, it's not working, now what; a roommate is experimenting with drugs; another friend isn't eating right - and so on. She wanted to rescue everyone on campus. I stayed on message with all the appropriate responses, and, she's either (1) learned something and reined in the impulse to help (2) still doing it and just not sharing with me anymore. D wishes to save and cure everything and everyone, could be a lost kitten or a person, they're equivalently critical to her.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>This Fred needs saving all the time, literally. He visited my house the first time - and stayed three days - when I would not permit him to drive on roads during a category three hurricane. Of course, it was his poor judgement that led him to be out during the hurricane in the first place. I had to pick him up and drive him home at 1:00 a.m. when his car wouldn't start when they were on a date. This, too, was his "fault" - he admitted that he had been having progressively serious problems with it all day long. But this didn't prompt him to see a mechanic, and it didn't stop him from transporting my daughter and his passenger in it. </p>

<p>Fred really, really needs parents. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>I'm sure you're right here too. She has made remarks about "soon there will be no more summers" ref. to when she will get into a career. And, she does call Fred back just about as often as he calls her. It strikes me though as they may both be enjoying the tension and chase. I'm sure my resistance to the whole thing is making it more attractive - for both of them. This is one of the reasons Blossom's post helped so much - Blossom's husband is disinterested. As such, there's no forbidden fruit, which surely must seriously dilute attractions. I'm going to be disinterested as well, from this day forward. But what I will also do - and I cannot give Calmom enough thanks for this - is not allow the nonsense in my presence. It's irritating, I don't like it, and I'm simply not going to put up with it any more. If D wants to have dinner with me or whatever, great, but the cell phone stays off. And this young man will not be following me in cars again. </p></li>
<li><p>Yes, I agree here too. She does have a very strong second career interest - and hence the reason for the second undergrad degree. I was able to get her a full day at Quantico through a business contact. She loved every minute of it, and is seriously thinking of applying to the Academy (earliest age is 27 I think). You weren't off the mark re pathology, she is picking up a minor in pre-forensics, which she thinks will serve in a federal level intelligence/investigative profession, if she cannot find her way to the ER, or perhaps even if she can. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I do have some confidence that all will turn out well. I do also sincerely appreciate all of the responses and very kind thoughts here. My plan is to try to morph into a mom version of Blossom's husband, but at the same time watch this situation very closely for any signs that something serious is in play.</p>

<p>D did call and email today by the way. We dealt with some technology decisions (we're changing around our entire email/internet/networking stuff) and then said our "I love yous" and that was it. I have no idea how her weekend went with Fred and the team - I didn't ask - and she has no idea that I spent the weekend drilling dozens of posts in the creation of a seven page thread about a 20 year old young man who calls too much. I think we'll both be happier if neither knows how the other spent the weekend.</p>

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<p>Janimom, I forgot to say, wow, congrats on your daughter's 4.0. That's a wonderful achievement. (Mine has no hope of a 4.0 lol.) I'm sure your daughter's excellent results will pay off somewhere, soon. As to Jym's #4, we also have a few friends who took another year or so along the path to med school acceptance - one was drom Dartmouth, but I forget the numbers. Another spent years trying to get into med school - she wrecked the MCAT because of construction noise in the building where the test was being administered. Got rejected everywhere, finally sat for it again after several years, aced it, and got the same rejections, until she called med schools to inquire, and learned that most were still working from her 1st, disastrous score. Straighted out the records and got accepted. Now she's a highly regarded surgeon.</p>

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<p>After reading this whole tale, it struck me that while your daughter did not tell you about her weekend and you did not tell her about your advice, Fred's family may well be on another site with their story. You say she calls him an equal amount, so it's possible that Fred's family considers your daughter a stalker. Their son is trying to work 3 jobs and maintain his high GPA while your daughter insists he comes down and supports her through midterms! Then she brings half her team to stay over while he's supposed to be studying! He cares so much about her he spent major money on her mother's Christmas presents! Can't y'all just see the other side of this story?</p>

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<p>But then that doesn't add up to how he is always available, all hours of the day and night, and never seems to actually be at any of the three jobs (which have never been described or identified), how D says the four adults in his world keeping "laying it on thick" pushing her closer into the relationship (the father in particular seems to want his son to marry the "future doctor"), how the adults are constantly buying her presents, or buying them "couple" presents (the surprise at the theme park was paid for by the father).</p>

<p>D reported that she had to tell the father bluntly - in response to another session of him "laying it on thick" - she has no intention of being serious about, or marrying, "anyone I am dating right now". She has also said that she has asked Fred to ask his parents and their spouses to back off. </p>

<p>The natural mother is constantly sending gifts to her, or giving her gifts. Most of them she cannot use and does not know what to do with. They tend to be things like purses, scarves, various accessories. I have tried to tell her to decline them, tell the mother "no thanks", etc. (in response to her telling me how irritating it is) - I don't know if she's tried to turn down the gifts, or if maybe it's just easier to accept them. D tried to give them to me. There's a whole bag upstairs of various gifts from this woman.</p>

<p>Other times, the father and his spouse have taken them to dinner, and, in front of everyone, hands Fred $100 bills and says "show this young lady a wonderful weekend son"... - </p>

<p>There's another very good reason why the example in Blossom's post was so excellent - by remaining neutral and uninvolved, I can maintain the necessary "safe harbor" should D need help getting out of this. Much harder for her to reach home for help, should she need to, if she dreads the "I told you so" issue.</p>

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<p>About the money for the team trip. Have you asked her why she changed her plans even though you only agreed to give her the money to go with the coach/team and not with Fred? Maybe you should stop giving her money if she is going to continue to say one thing and do another.</p>

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<p>LTS - I have thought about posting all day and still cannot decide if I have anything to offer you. I can really understand some of what you are saying although my D is younger, just deciding where to go to university. We have always been close and she has always shared more information with me than most kids tell their parents. You could be describing my D when you explain how your D was in high school, appearing mature, etc. I was particularly struck by your mention of the "comfort" you felt with the shorter drive as it related to her tiredness, studies, other demands, etc, and I was interested to see how some people felt you shouldn't be involved in her schedule at all at her age. I can imagine myself feeling just like you, if my D shared the information with me, and I was already concerned with her level of fatigue and her grades, and it would have nothing to do with involvement - it would just be my reaction (feeling comforted) to the information she gave me. I also have the experience of having a "gut feeling" that something is not right with someone my D was close with; I mentioned on the other thread about a girlfriend to whom I reacted similarly. Months later it turned out that she was emotionally disturbed due to an illness that had just been diagnosed. I would have to agree that all is not right in this situation and advise you to watch it closely and get that male figure (priest?) involved with D and bf for perspective. Yet I related even more to your description of your D's phone call with the change of plan - because I could so imagine myself doing the same thing as she did. I hate to admit this as a mom, but that could have been me saying "I have a surprise for you", knowing that you wouldn't like it because of the money issue and because I knew how you felt about the bf, but not able to defy or confront a person I needed/cared for as much as I did my mom. Surely your bright D knew you would not be pleased with the info she was about to give you, but she didn't want open hostility or loss of funding or to lose your support/love, whatever. I don't know that this is any help to you, but it has surely been evocative for me, and I have always considered myself to be close to my mom (although I didn't tell her everything) and I think I'm close with my D. Families, parenting, expectations can all be so different, but it seems like you are doing a great job of listening to all opinions without taking umbrage at those who disagree with your style and implementing ideas that could fit into your style of parenting. I wish you and your D the best and hope you let us know how it turns out.</p>

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<p>LTS -- with parents like that, is it any wonder that Fred is so messed up? I also think that the supposed 3 jobs doesn't mesh with all the time he has to call ... but it sounds like Fred has been raised up by two very screwed up people - his only model for expressing affection is to manipulate, overwhelm, and to try to impress.</p>