Unidirectional College Courseload

Parents Forum
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<p>Son will be sophomore physics major at a midsize science oriented T20 research U in the fall. Just told me the courses he has signed up for. </p>

<p>3 upper level math courses including Honors analysis (4 credits each).<br>
2nd year Physics for physics majors (4 credits)
Physics seminar (1 credit)</p>

<p>That's it. Hmmm, I said.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>He is quite capable in math and physics but not an uber genius. I think he could do well in any of these courses individually (not sure about analysis but could at least get a 'B')</p></li>
<li><p>Hates non math/physics classes. Has done well in his 3 non science classes so far but has not enjoyed a single one and is very much looking forward to not having any papers to write.</p></li>
<li><p>School has fairly low distribution requirements so this should not interfere with graduation requirements. I think he needs 9 more non-science credits total.</p></li>
<li><p>Has decided he wants to try for a BA/MA in math, along with a physics major, in 4 years then go onto Physics grad school. This is possible but will require close to 2 math/2 physics classes every semester. He is quite happy at this prospect.</p></li>
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<p>So what do you all think about this level of specialization this early? I don't think I can (or should?) change his mind. I attended a high Core requirement school and got a well rounded education which I have thoroughly enjoyed having but it has been clear from DS's early childhood that he was not a well rounded kid.</p>

<p>I think it's not unusual for hum/soc sci kids to not take any math/science classes beyond the first year, so the flip side doesn't seem so strange like this does to me. Also, I noticed that most of his math/science profs are Eastern European or Asian, and I suspect they had specialized early into their chosen area of study and excelled at it.</p>

<p>What do I need to watch for? Have your kids specialized this hard this early? Is there a significant burn out rate?</p>

<p>He also plays a varsity sport so at least he will get some exercise :D.</p>

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<p>Often, the humanities and social science students get to take easier versions of science courses for breadth requirements, so it is pretty common for them to not be very “well rounded”. Most universities do require science (and engineering) students to take more humanities and social studies than the other way around.</p>

<p>He may want to take some economics courses, where math is applied to social studies.</p>

<p>If the university offers a scientific or technical writing course, he may want to take that as well, since being able to communicate ideas is important in any field. This includes communication to others in the field (e.g. technical research papers) and explaining ideas to those not in the field (e.g. announcements to the general public). For whatever reason, most university writing courses are humanities-centric, which may be less interesting for and less applicable to the needs of science (and engineering) majors.</p>

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<p>^Agree, he should take something other than in his specialization. He’s not in a Ph.D. program yet; it’s still an undergraduate degree! College is also about taking courses he might not otherwise consider. Exploration! Humanities?! I like the econ idea.</p>

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<p>Hard to say. I’ve seen kids crash and burn with tough loads when they were top students in high school, and I’ve seen turn arounds. If the Analysis course has Calc 3 and Lin Alg as pre reqs I would be concerned since many high schools, even the best, do not cover those subjects adequately, nor do most community colleges I 've known when compared to a full blown university. I’ve seen kids bomb Calc 3 and Lin Alg after taking B/C calc courses and doing well enough on the AP exam to go right into those at college. The theory end of the math is not heavly covered in high school even in B/C calc and the level of the kids taking advanced math in college is very high. </p>

<p>If your son can take some or one of those courses P/F that could take off some pressure so he could focus on the courses that take the most time. Look and see if that is a possibility. </p>

<p>The problem I see with him loading up on advanced math courses first term is that he has not had a chance to test the waters in terms of his preparedness for the math curriculum at his college. It might be just fine, in which case he’ll have a bonanza. But he might bet his butt kicked which could be a disaster since he has so much invested in this. He literally has all of his eggs in one basket. </p>

<p>My son went straight into an advanced math course at his college and I can tell you I was concerned despite the fact that he is wired for math, always has been, came from a very rigorous high school and had a 5 in BC calc. He had going for him the fact that he takes only one course at time at his college and the professor teaches the course, not a TA,and they do take all the time a student needs to help him. He had no problems and is now pursing a double major with math being one of them and has been taking other advanced math and statistics courses. He plays a sport too. </p>

<p>But when I read top 20 research uni, it does scare me, yes, it would for my own kids because of TAs involved, lack of attention as opposed to a small LAC where getting the students through the class is a major objective. </p>

<p>I got my head handed to me taking Physics with engineering and physics majors at a school like that and I had a near perfect math SAT1 and a perfect math achievement (now SAT2) score at such a school. Every single kid in that class was just about as well prepared or more so than I was, and many more willing to work more than I was. The non American TAs and profs at my school were very unsympathetic to the way American colleges work, I’m afraid, as they were all business as their countries are, in terms of university studies. </p>

<p>Have him target one course as a possible drop if the going gets rough, as he can do that and still be full time. He is taking a heavy load, but who knows how it will go. It might be his idea of nirvana. But it could end up being a nightmare, and having some failsafe measures in place would be wise.</p>

<p>It’s not that there is a significant burn out rate in engineering/math/physics and such, but that the time needed to do the work and the intensity of focus required as the subject matter gets more difficult is more than most kids want to spend. There isn’t the leeway of just getting by that one can do in social sciences and humanities. With math, it’s often all or nothing and you gotta get it all to move on to the next level because each level assumes a solid working knowledge of the level before it. He is more well rounded than most in these fields as he plays a varsity sport, and unfortunately that can be a detriment,not an aid in this academic endeavors. Very, very ,very few NCAA athletes have physics, math, engineering, computers as their majors, and for good reason. The sheer time commitment those disciplines have, in order to do well is not compatible with college level sports.</p>

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<p>Actually, I just spotted that he is a sophomore, not a freshman, which changes the picture drastically. He already knows what’s in it for him at that school and has succeeded in making the pre reqs for those courses from within the departments. I was concerned that he was going directly into mid level courses from high school which I have seen a lot of kids do and get hit too hard. </p>

<p>I would think his department and advisors have vetted him and he too has a good idea on what these courses will entail and feels he can handle them. </p>

<p>Good luck to him.</p>

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<p>cpt: Yes, he knows kids who have taken these classes etc. Says he will pre study during the summer and is completely undaunted by having 4 problem sets/week. Much prefers that to writing papers.</p>

<p>ucb and limabeans: yes, I think he will take the econ class by and by for his ‘distribution’ requirements. When I talk about taking non-science courses, I can almost ‘hear’ the tears welling up in his voice. At some point, one has to enjoy the classes, no?</p>

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<p>OP–your son should meet my applied math/physics/Japanese major/minor combo sophomore daughter. I keep telling her to take something fun (or at least easy) and she tells me that she tried computer science and it was fun. Sometimes it is easy to have a kid who is nothing like me and sometimes it’s a challenge. I think that if your son is doing well, you should not worry. Chances are that he will have to take some other courses to fill requirements.</p>

<p>Oh–and supposedly mathematicians are traditionally happiest in their jobs!</p>

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<p>Yes, my H, a math prof at USC, is typically very happy with his job, as a matter of fact.</p>

<p>I agree that since you S is a sophomore, I wouldn’t be so concerned about it. At some point, I think all the STEM majors know they need a breather and then schedule in the social science/humanities distribution classes they need for their degree. Yes, economics is one of the more popular ones. </p>

<p>My S is finishing up his freshman year at Northwestern U in the honors Integrated Science Program, which is interdisciplinary, accelerated and intense. He already knows that his sophomore year will be less “busy” work and more intense, since they’ll be beyond the intro classes (which, for non-ISP major, would make students swoon.) He seems ready for the challenge.</p>

<p>My major concern would be how your S balances the workload with being an athlete.</p>

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<p>I have kids like this, too. My oldest once sent me a happy announcement from college in sophmore year, saying he had completed the last English course ever in his life. He wound up with a math/comp sci double major and did very well with it.
There are really two issues here: one is, has he bitten off more than he can chew with this schedule, and secondly, does excluding any kind of writing-oriented course make Jack a dull boy? I don’t think you can absolutely say yes to either question, and your son is in a good position to learn from his possible mistake in these regards. (These math guys do tend to be logical in their assessments…)
I’d agree with those that suggest his having a targeted “drop” course, and maybe a reload of an easier, non-math course for the semester. Then, let him and his process develop. Most math students hit a wall during college, where they no longer want to pursue pure math. Your son has plenty of time.</p>

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<p>It is interesting to note that most responses in this thread assume that math and science are harder than humanities and social studies. While that appears to be true for most students (and science courses with labs can be time consuming), some students are the opposite – math and science are easier for them than humanities and social studies. If the OP’s son is one of the latter, then the difficulty aspect should not be too much an issue.</p>

<p>In addition to economics and scientific and technical writing courses, other courses that could be helpful and interesting are those which deal with the social implications of science and technology. For example, consider the reaction of the general public to various risks like nuclear reactors melting down in some far off country versus annual mammograms. Or (in a math context) how the general public reacts to how insurance companies set insurance rates.</p>

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<p>ihs, my S1 is not unlike your S – but he chose the school with the mega Core requirement which one can’t slide through.</p>

<p>What he has found is that if he takes three math/CS courses and one Core class per quarter, he does MUCH better grade-wise. He needs those courses that energize him in order to get through the other stuff. (and he likes the Hum, Sosc and Civ stuff – he just never seems to do particularly well in them). He launched directly into upper div math and grad CS as a first year. Sailed through, but hit the soph slump. Not so much with the major courses as with the FL and SOSC. He did learn that he needs to keep his geek side happy in order to do well at the other stuff. Of course, this also means he will be taking a Core class his final quarter of college! :eek: </p>

<p>ETA: S has been able to find Core classes that are sciencey-mathy enough to keep him engaged. Have your S look at Philosophy courses or things like History of Science. Also agree Econ is good for these kinds of kiddos.</p>

<p>I’d be more concerned with the push to finish the MS in four years. Does he want a PhD? If so, just take grad courses if he wants, but don’t focus on the MS. (S has been able to fulfill a good bit of his BS requirements with grad courses. Works out great for him.) For further grad school, grades will be more important than the speed at which your S completes his degree.</p>

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<p>During my undergrad every semester was either all technical classes or with one non-tech. The only real problem I had was during midterms where I still had large problem sets due every week, often a mid-term progress report on the lab in each class, and an actual midterm exam. Studying all equations definitely got tiring after a while, though the material (even when all the classes were within my major) was different enough that switching to work on a different class made it feel refreshing.</p>

<p>Even though most of my humanities classes were easier than my technical ones, I still found myself wanting to work on them less, wasting more time while working on them, and generally feeling much less interested in the class than I was with my technical ones. The only exception would be my technical writing class, which was taught by a superb professor.</p>

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<p>Traveling cross country yesterday so getting back to this thread finally. Thanks for the personal experiences. I feel better :)</p>

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<p>Says he’ll be a physics major/grad school. Just wants to get his drive through math MA on the way to physics grad school.</p>

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<p>True for him. Hadn’t thought of it that way, thanks.</p>

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<p>That’s what he has been doing but still doesn’t like them. Enough of a perfectionist that he ends up spending a lot of time working on the papers rather than dashing them off for a mediocre grade then being frustrated that he doesn’t have time for the stuff he likes to study. Or so that’s what I hear.</p>

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<p>glad to hear you survived it. Looks like that’s what he will end up with.</p>

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<p>If you really enjoy the material you’re getting during those classes you’ll actually start to miss it once you graduate. :)</p>

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<p>That’s what I hear, too… :)</p>

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<p>I also survived an undergraduate experience that was, at most, one non-technical class per semester. This was common in engineering programs 30 years ago, and may still be now. I’d say, be glad that he knows what he wants, rather than floundering around and declaring any old major just to graduate. :)</p>

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<p>He might enjoy Philosophy courses, historically links with mathematicians- suggest he try one. He could also end up changing his major. Son started with math and physics honors sequences, getting degree in math and comp sci- has taken several math grad level courses and several other courses out of sequence (prereq after a course…) as an undergrad. Problem sets sound a lot more fun than writing papers/regurgitating garbage… He may finally discover other fun courses senior year and regret not exploring them earlier.</p>

<p>Sounds like he is happily immersed in the math/science world. Saw a to-be-freshman’s proposed schedule online- 3 poli sci and another soc sci course; people are suggesting more diversity for him.</p>

<p>About all you can do is to encourage him to discuss with his advisor. His path may be better than the student who flirts with everything and never delves deeply into anything- the “jack of all trades and master of none”.</p>

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<p>This was S1 senior year of HS as he became enamoured of philosophy, polisci and history. It was a major reason he chose Chicago over MIT – his feeling was that UG would be his one chance to explore those areas before zeroing in on the good stuff. Of course, he just keeps charging into the deep end of the pool for the math/CS stuff, too, because it’s fun and stimulating.</p>

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<p>^^ I personally am a full UChicago Core convert. Started there as a pretty directional science major and came out loving my Hum/SocSci classes and even went onto get an MA in Humanities ‘just for fun’ before going on to Med School. </p>

<p>DS is a very different animal. Would have been very happy to have him attend UChicago but could just feel in my bones that he would not have survived the Core… DD, on the other hand, I still have hopes for her :)</p>

<p>I had a friend at UChicago who got an MS in Math by the end of his 3rd year but had to finish his Core classes for his BA which took him 4 years :D. He was able to muddle through his Core and didn’t care what grades he got as long as he passed, and neither did Princeton where he went to for his Math PhD.</p>

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<p>I’d encourage him to mix it up a bit. Would there perhaps be something offered in the music department that would appeal to him? Linguistics, genetics, and epidemiology can also be fun classes for quantitative kids.</p>

<p>If he doesn’t want to mix it up a bit, well, he can go for it. Have him carefully watch the withdrawal deadline so that if this does turn out to be too much for him, he can drop one of the classes.</p>