Since Canadians do not take the SAT/ACT there is no common denominator. Any claim about easier admission is pure speculation.
Indeed. It’s kind of like asking if it is easier for Texans to get in to UT-Austin or Internationals. For Texans in the top 7% of their class, it is very easy. In fact, it is guaranteed. For those outside of that, it is very tough.
Quite a few US citizens do attend UT and McGill, perhaps other leading Canadian universities as well. It’s a viable option for some. I’ve had a number of grad students, some Canadian and some US citizens, who did their undergrad at UT or McGill. They’re bright, capable, and well educated, certainly comparable to students coming out of the better US colleges and universities. For admission to top US graduate programs, I don’t think it would be any significant disadvantage to have done undergrad at UT, McGill, or UBC, perennially ranked as Canada’s top universities (all public, by the way). Most academics at top US schools are familiar with these schools and hold them in high regard. For employment in the US straight out of undergraduate it might be something of a disadvantage, however, as these schools just aren’t as well known here. Internationally, however, those three schools enjoy sterling reputations, and they attract a lot of international students.
I know less about UBC, but UT and McGill are both centrally located in dynamic, vibrant cities. This could be a plus, or it could be a bit of a distraction for some. My one reservation about UT in particular is that its student-faculty ratio is extremely high, much higher than the leading US publics. I think this is somewhat less true of McGill, but I don’t have immediate access to those figures. A high s-f ratio usually means more large lecture classes and less opportunity for interaction with faculty, though certainly there are exceptions. I think it can also be challenging for US students to get off to a good start at Canadian universities because as I understand it, Canadians do an extra year before college–where we have K-12, they have K-13, so coming out of a US HS you’re competing with people a year older and with an additional year of education. That’s not necessarily an insurmountable challenge, but for some it’s a challenge, especially when combined with harsher grading curves in Canadian universities.
As for distance and homesickness . . . I say pish, tosh. From western NY State, e.g., Buffalo or Rochester, Toronto is just around the corner, closer than New York City. From the Detroit area, Toronto is less than a 4 hour drive–closer than Chicago. From Chicago, Toronto is closer than Boston, New York, Philadelphia, or Washington. From New York or Boston, Montreal is closer than anyplace in the Midwest, and Toronto is closer than anyplace in the Midwest other than Cleveland. And Toronto and Montreal are modern, up-to-date cities with excellent airports, so for a Southerner or Westerner, going to college in one of those cities is no more inconvenient than going to any school in the Northeast. Airfares may be slightly higher, but you save so much on tuition that the travel cost difference is not a big factor.
Unless the laws have changed in the past 3 yrs, there are no visa issues. You show paid tuition and proof of living arrangements at the border and a visa is issued right there.
Our oldest dd did attend college in Canada for 1 yr. She changed her mind about career goals and came back home to finish her education.
Our 2nd dd had planned on attending college in Canada. She wants to major in Russian and French and some Canadian universities wave international fees if you take your courses in French. We are 2nd guessing that option bc she was recently diagnosed with Lupus. She has always lived in the South. Brutal winters (she has never really experience any real winter before), shorter daylight hrs, international with flights as the only possible way home does not seem like a good idea when stress triggers flares. With her last flare she couldn’t even sit up by herself. Otherwise, it was her best affordable option. Now she is facing our local regional university…definitely a huge step down.
Canadian universities are closer aligned to the USA system than a UK university. UoT, UBC, McGill are publicly funded and are similar to UMichigan, Berkeley etc — excluding the school spirit. Athletics exist, but outside of ice hockey, there is rarely a sports cult. Students are focused on academics, general socializing and their club interests.
Excluding Quebec, Canada eliminated the extra grade 13 more than 2 decades ago. Quebec has grade 13 (cegep), hence most Quebec students only study for 3 years to obtain their university degree. IB and some AP students (dependent on credits) can also complete the degree in 3 years; however, there is a standard 4 year degree option for most American curriculum students. UoT and UBC degrees are mostly 4 years.
Canadian schools selectivity needs to be viewed within the context that minimum entry standards are published, and in general they must be met. It is a numbers and academic results driven system; not generally holistic. Hence, if the minimum entry standard is A- for a course (SAT is only for American curriculum), then few Canadians would even attempt an application if their result was B+. In the USA, most universities do not state minimums and many students may “try” for a course. In most countries, the “selectivity” of the university does not determine the university’s quality. Students do not apply unless they are truly within the qualification range, and most applications exceed the minimum (minimum does not guarantee an offer). UK Oxbridge has an overall acceptance rate of 25%+ because few students that do not meet the minimum apply.
For McGill, the minimum SAT entry for an American curriculum student is within the same range+ of the USA top public universities:
–Arts R620 M600 + SATIIs 620
–Arts & Science RM 660 + SATIIs 660
–Business RM 650 + SATIIs 650
–Science RM 680 + SATIIs 680
DS1 is the rare dual-Canadian/ USA student who started at a selective USA private, and then transferred to McGill (long story…). He has experienced the education and opportunities in both countries. McGill is very international and he has friends from many countries including Americans. Most find the academics challenging, especially because there is no grade inflation (no easy As). However, the research and resources are phenomenal and DS1 has had great opportunities and internships (even compared to many friends at USA elite). Non-Canadians can work while studying and continue working for 2 years following graduation on a student visa. DS1 friends who have graduated are doing very well with employment in both the USA/ Canada/ International,
Here’s a link to a University of Toronto document on student-faculty ratio. Calculating its student-faculty ratio the way U.S. universities do. UT says its student-faculty ratio of 39 to 1, based on FTE student enrollment of 70,476. This compares to an AAU mean of 24.2 to 1. For top U.S. publics, the student-faculty ratio is much lower: Michigan 15 to 1, UC Berkeley 17 to 1, UCLA 17 to 1, UVA 15 to 1, UNC Chapel Hill 13 to 1, according to those schools’ most recent Common Data Sets. The University of Toronto’s student body is also much, much larger than any of the top U.S. publics.
http://www.utoronto.ca/sites/default/files/about/2013/B_03_Student_Faculty_Ratios5103.pdf
There has been much previous discussion about the issue of US students attending Canadian Universities. The conclusion was the better Canadian Universities are no longer the financial bargain they once were. Also, many Canadian universities have less on-campus housing than US universities, which contributes to less of an on-campus social scene.
Your stats are misleading, as the website you quote states. Because of the various ways in which faculty can be counted, U of T does not report faculty: student ratios. http://www.utoronto.ca/about-uoft/measuring-our-performance/comprehensive-faculty-count
There are 3 separate University of Toronto campuses. The main campus (St. George) has 40,000 undergrads. In addition, U of T counts faculties such as medicine and law in its undergraduate count. Subtracting those gives a number of about 34000 undergrads. http://www.utoronto.ca/sites/default/files/about/Facts_Figures_2014/Facts_Figures_2014_D_Students.pdf St. George is further subdivided into 7 colleges, each with 1600-4000 students.
The vast majority of international students at U of T are from overseas. Homesickness and culture shock are very real issues for these students.
I still think it’s a bargain. I rather my kid go to McGill then NYU.
OP may want to search for posts from the old poster “Northstar”. There is a lot of information on her professional opinion and experience teaching at both Canadian and USA publics versus Ivy.
Many Canadians also find UoT too large, and choose smaller Canadian universities that are not as well-known internationally. As @ bouders notes, the functional UoT main campus is 40,000 which is equivalent to UoTexas-Austin, Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan State. The college system also makes the large UoT feel smaller. Overseas internationals don’t have any more culture shock issues than if they attended USA universities. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are all diverse cities.
Cost is still much less than USA OOS for internationals. If seeking large financial aid or merit scholarships, then Canada is not a viable option for Americans/ internationals. However, for full-pay and donut hole families, the cost tends to be less than OOS and privates that don’t meet 100% need.
For 2015-16 McGill Tuition and Fees (USD) for international (some other Canadian schools are cheaper):
-Arts = $13,700
-Management = $31,500
-Science = $27,500
-Engineering = $27,800
A standard BA is a very good price compared to other USA OOS and private options. Room & Board is about $9000 per year, and nearby off-campus apartments are plentiful and cheaper than university housing. Comparatively, NYU’s tuition is $48,000 and room/board $17,000, and Texas-Austin’s tuition is $37,000 (varies a bit by school) and room/board $12,000
@charliesch, I would not overgeneralize like that. Or rather, I would find out details before saying anything. Arts and Arts&Science degrees at McGill (which cover many majors) as well as CS at Waterloo (which is very well regarded for CS) is as cheap as in-state tuition at some American schools, and even the more expensive international rates are comparable to OOS tuition at the cheaper quality American publics like UW-Madison (so quite a bit less than full-pay at a good private).
Toronto and, especially, McGill are quite popular around here. They are no longer the bargain they once were, but they are pretty much still a bargain compared to anything other than in-state publics (and they are not more expensive than the public flagship in this state). Between friends of my kids, kids of my friends, and Canadian relatives with whom I am close, I know a lot of people who have attended one or the other of them in the past decade, with experiences running from not-so-hot to fabulous.
The best outcomes were three really strong students, reasonable Ivy-type candidates, who effectively used the Canadian universities as admissions and financial safety schools. They went there (two to UT, one to McGill) when it was their best option. (One of them turned down an Ivy acceptance because McGill, with some merit aid, was going to cost $15,000/year less . . . and with some decent luck on currency hedges it wound up being even cheaper than that.) All absolutely loved their university and the city it was in. All got extensive research opportunities, funding, and faculty mentorship. Two went directly into tippy-top-ranked U.S. PhD programs upon (or one year after) graduation. The third got a great entry-level job for her field in her home U.S. city.
The successful student at McGill was in some sort of humanities honors program there, which meant that she did not have the freshman experience there of 1,000-person introductory classes. I know a number of people who transferred out of McGill because of that. Students who aren’t internally-driven self-starters can have a tough time. There’s no lack of student life at these universities, but it’s more diffused because they’re right in the middle of big cities and they don’t have (much of) a fraternity culture or a college sports culture.
Visa issues are nonexistent, except for work. There are definitely ways to work, though – everyone had jobs, including the U.S. citizens, but not all those jobs were “formal.” One of them did a summer tree-planting job several years for which foreign students were actively recruited, legally.
Oh, and by the way, Ontario ended Grade 13 about 12 years ago, not 20. My 30-year-old niece was in the last Grade 13 class there, and the double-cohort for entering college. Everything was fine, but there was certainly some stress in the system then.