<p>Newmassdad, I have read over your two posts, 40 and 38, twice before responding to you. I hope that all folks, especially the original poster, reread his posts carefully because this is a sample of what the 200K for an ivy school will provide: an elitist mentality! I don’t know if this is indicative of the personality of the individual or just seemed to come out that way in his posts, however.</p>
<p>Now where to begin. First, I am NOT as you refer to me as, "one of the group that thinks an elite education is never worth the money. " On the contrary, I do value quality education being a former professor at several universities and currently full-time writer and educator. I have just found , based on my experiences ( which are both varied and numerous) that paying that extra 200K doesn’t generally get most folks any further economically than attending the cheaper but good state university. Certainly, most of the successfull folks that I have met including partners in accounting firms, law firms, big consulting firms and CEOs ( of which I have met quite a few), did NOT attend an ivy undergrduate school or ivy-like undergraduate school. Every study, including studies by two Princeton professors, are congruent with my experiences.</p>
<p>Yes, I do acknowlege that generally you get richer, more connected kids at the top private schools. Yes, the average kid might even be a bit better credential wise. However, this doesn’t necessarily justify spending an extra 200K. My view is that the education is the same if the kids at both schools have the right attitude. I do agree, however, that some folks prefer Lexus and some prefer Chevys,which makes the world an interesting place.</p>
<p>Secondly, the top kids at good state universities like Maryland and Virginia are as good as any I have seen. This would apply to about the top 25-40% of the student population. Other professors also felt as I do about this,when I spoke with them.</p>
<p>He also notes that,"I think taxguy also does not understand (lack of direct knowledge, perhaps) that these “few Wall Street Jobs” don’t just go to the “stars”. </p>
<p>Response:Oh, I don’t? You don’t know me at all. First, I could have gotten a job on wall street as a bond trader ( despite not attending an ivy school)but turned it down for a number of good reasons. I interned at the firm and knew that I didn’t want that kind of stress and high amount of hours worked among other reasons. In fact, everyone there was a heart attack in the waiting. If anyone wants these “wall street jobs,” be aware of this. As my dad used to say, “be careful what you wish for. You might get it.”</p>
<p>Newmassdad also notes,"Perhaps part of the misunderstanding stems from trying to compare a UMD grad to a Chicago grad. It is true that the UMD grad must do “very well” at UMD “which is no easy guarantee considering all the top kids there” because of all these scholarships…in order to have any chance at a decent WS job. But that’s because UMD is NOT an elite U. Different standards apply at elites. "</p>
<p>Response: Maybe things have changed in 30 years, but when I worked on wall street, those guys coming out of the ivys had very good GPA at their schools. You seem to give the impression from your statement that simply coming out of a school akin to Chicago will get you a wall street job. That wasn’t true when I was there and would bet isn’t true now. I am sure that these kids would need a strong GPA even at an ivy school. I apologize if I misread what you wrote or misinterpreted it.</p>
<p>Newsmassdad also notes, “To put it another way, employers find that it is less work and less risk to pursue good students from elite universities over the “stars” from lesser places. Two reasons that come to mind: 1. The gating criteria to the elite programs at State U. are often far looser than admission to an elite university. Consider for example, how much weight is given to SAT and NM status for these programs, compared to the more holistic approach for admission to an elite college.”</p>
<p>Response: First, the gating criteria is bunk. Any professor worth his salt will tell you that attitude determines altitude for success. My daughter is one good example. She did rather poorly on her SAT,which would have hurt her chances for admission at any ivy school. However, if you knew her, you would know, she would outperform almost anyone in college,which she, in fact, did. I have met amazingly top notch kids who attended a state university because of the price.Don’t forget, many kids who are admited to the Ivys are admited based on many "holistic " factors unrelated to their academics. Think George Bush!</p>
<p>I have also met numerous managers, especially those that hire engineers and computer science folks, who have stopped recruiting at ivy schools and MIT because, as they have noted, " These kids have a sense of undeserved importance and over value themselves considerably." “Kids from other schools work harder and feel that they must prove themselves.” These are quotes that I just got from a recruiting manager of a big computer consulting firm. I didn’t make these up.</p>
<p>By the way, I also tutored for the SAT. That is another fairly worthless exam and many schools are becoming more cognizant of that fact. I can honestly say that there is little corelation between the exam and performance once a minimum level is reached,which is about 1400 ( M and CR). Even with lower score, many top notch kids don’t seem to shine through. Of course, the College Board will never admit this. Yes, there probably is some corelation with scores and grades, but from my experience teaching the exam, it is a slight corelation at best. However, this can be debated ad nauseum.</p>
<p>Finally, Newmassdad notes,"2. The criteria for “stardom” at a State U is often far lower. Put another way, A grades are easy (-ier?) if you do the work (and are not an engineering major?) "</p>
<p>Response: You have to be kidding here! It is far tougher to get an “A” at a state university than that of an ivy school. I have seen kids from Cornell and other ivys take courses at Maryland,which is one school that I taught at, get very surprised at how tough the grading was. At many state universities, some professors have strict bell curves. Check out the average GPA at many state schools other than the top 5 state schools. I guarantee it is a LOT lower than that of the ivys. Princeton in fact recently changed their grading standards to require “no more than 35% “A’s” in any one class.” Hello? In many state schools, you are lucky to get no more than 10% A’s if that! Part of the reason for this is that state schools try to make room for transfers such as those who were successful at community colleges. Thus, flunking out kids is more more encouraged at state universities. This is NOT as true at private schools where they want the money and certainly isn’t as true at ivys where the average grade is a “B.”</p>
<p>Finally, I have found that many times recruiters pick kids who are like them in some ways. Thus, alumni take to hire alumni from the same schools. There are a heck of a lot more alumni from Maryland and Michigan than from any one ivy school,which means more folks around giving jobs.</p>
<p>Bottom line: if you or you have parents that have more money than god and don’t need the cash, heck, why not go to a schools with a great name. I do believe that the ivy schools will give marginal benefits in job connections ( and I do mean marginal). Also, if the top notch schools gives a kid one heck of a scholarship, it would be crazy to turn down. However absent these factors, I don’t see why a kid would want to turn down a full ride to a good state university.</p>
<p>You may respond as you wish. I just wanted to get my points across. I will not be posting in this thread again if I can help it.</p>