<p>I'm a senior in high school and it seems that my hopes of going to UM aren't going to pan out so well since I recently got deferred. My second choice is Michigan State University... and after doing a bit of research and asking around, it seems that MSU's undergrad program is much better than UM and that UM's grad school is what gives them the high ranking... I've also been continuously told that your undergrad school isn't as important as your grad school. So my questions are..
What is your opinion on the statement that says MSU's undergrad is better than UM's undergrad?
And the statement about undergrad school not being as important as grad school? Would a bachelor's degree from MSU have the same value as a degree from UM?</p>
<p>Likely depends on your intended major for undergraduate and graduate study. Different schools have different strengths and weaknesses.</p>
<p>As ucb said, it depends on the major. With that being said, Michigan is a better school than MSU and whoever said otherwise is pretty wrong.</p>
<p>I have a close relative who has been a professor at both schools. What he’s told me about the two schools supports what Prema says above. He says the profs at Michigan are way too interested in making big names for themselves through research and publications, often with an eye towards moving on to a different university. In contrast, the tendency IN GENERAL is for MSU profs to strike a better balance between teaching and research, and are not as intent on moving up/out.</p>
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<p>Your undergraduate experience is what you make of it. Neither UM or MSU, with their TA-soaked courses, will have the same classroom experience as at an LAC, yet you can find the LAC experience at each place (James Madison MSU , Residential College UM)</p>
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<p>This depends. In general, your grad overshadows undergrad, but I know personally that I got my current job because the hirer had gone to my undergrad and so my CV rose to the top of the pile. He told me so. This really depends on your field of study.</p>
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<p>Not sure what you mean by “value.” There is no question that statewide, nationally, and internationally, U of M is a more prestigious and respected degree than MSU. That does not mean that any random U of M student has had a better experience and received a better education than another random, MSU student, just the way that the degrees are perceived because of many variables.</p>
<p>I think Michigan State is a solid second choice for a Michigan resident, and with hard work and self-initiative, it’s certainly possible to get a very fine undergraduate education there; I know many people who have done so. </p>
<p>But let’s not kid ourselves about MSU being “better” than Michigan at the undergraduate level. Michigan’s got better students, a better faculty, a better student-faculty ratio, fewer large classes, far more small classes, a higher graduation rate: I could go on and on. Bottom line, Michigan’s got resources that Michigan State can only dream of, and pretty much everyone at both schools knows it. </p>
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<p>This is the kind of b.s. you occasionally hear said about any elite university. I give it approximately zero credence. There are a lot of ambitious young scholars at MSU hoping to “write their way up.” There are also some, perhaps many, who know their star is no longer rising, if it ever was. I’m not convinced the latter group make better teachers or better academic role models.</p>
<p>Thank you for stating the obvious bclintonk.</p>
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Does any of you find something wrong with the above statements … or is it just me?</p>
<p>If you’re concerned with prestige, then a UM undergraduate degree is more prestigious than one from MSU, although that distinction fades the farther away you get from Ann Arbor.</p>
<p>If you’re talking about quality of undergraduate education, you can get an equivalent education at any major university, if you are a determined and motivated student.</p>
<p>Two points:</p>
<p>1) The vast majority of classes I’ve taken at Michigan that have discussion sections offer AT LEAST ONE if not more sections taught by the professor herself. “TA” soaked is a complete B.S. statement. </p>
<p>2) Even if you are not in the professor’s discussion section, the professors at Michigan are legendary for going the extra mile to help students. I’ve NEVER had a professor that was unwilling to meet with me after class, at a coffee shop, or at their office to discuss anything at all. </p>
<p>The Michigan undergraduate experience is superior to the MSU undergraduate experience in most every way, and meaningful interaction with professors who care about you is just one.</p>
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<p>I think probably just the opposite. Michigan has global name recognition, MSU doesn’t. Michigan perennially ranks very high in global higher education surveys, largely on the strength of its academic reputation–e.g., it’s currently #18 globally in the UK-based Times Higher Education World University Rankings. </p>
<p>Within the state of Michigan, however, some people (certainly not everyone) would see degrees from the two schools as more or less interchangeable.</p>
<p>Ask the average person around where I live (not all that far from Ann Arbor) which is the more prestigious university and you’d probably get a shoulder shrug. Of course, they probably haven’t consulted the UK-based Times Higher Education World University Rankings.</p>
<p>“If you’re concerned with prestige, then a UM undergraduate degree is more prestigious than one from MSU, although that distinction fades the farther away you get from Ann Arbor.”…and the closer you get to East Lansing.</p>
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<p>Or maybe they’re just not paying attention in your little corner of the world. In 2003 the Gallup Survey, in a nationwide poll, asked the open-ended question: “All in all, what would you say is the best college or university in the United States?” </p>
<p>The University of Michigan ranked 8th nationally, tied with Duke and ahead of 5 Ivies. Among college graduates with at least some post-graduate education, Michigan was in a 3-way tie for 5th (along with UC Berkeley and Princeton) after Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and MIT, So I’d say that’s some pretty powerful name recognition/prestige, far beyond little Ann Arbor.</p>
<p>“Neither UM or MSU, with their TA-soaked courses,…”</p>
<p>Snarlatron, I am not sure about MSU, but at Michigan only 3% of all classes (7% of lower division and 1% of upper division classes) are taught by TAs. The remaining classes are taught by professors. TAs usually have a support role, such as homeworks and quizes and leading classes discussions. Their involvement is pretty standard at any university with large graduate programs, such as Columbia, Harvard etc…</p>
<p>“If you’re concerned with prestige, then a UM undergraduate degree is more prestigious than one from MSU, although that distinction fades the farther away you get from Ann Arbor.”</p>
<p>Annasdad, Michigan’s reputation travels well. Obviously, the University is not going to be a household name (other than Harvard, I cannot think of many universities that would be household names on a national level), but in several parts of the US, such as the tri-state area and Silicon Valley, the Michigan brand is definitely noteworthy.</p>
<p>“Ask the average person around where I live (not all that far from Ann Arbor) which is the more prestigious university and you’d probably get a shoulder shrug.”</p>
<p>Naturally, this should be taken into context. Your comment certainly rings true. The majority of people are not going to be versed in the nuances of university institutional excellence. On a national scale, the average person would hardly know the difference between any two universities unless we are talking about Harvard and perhaps a couple other universities such as MIT and Yale. For instance, the average person outside of the Northeast would hardly know the difference between Penn and PSU or between Cornell and Syracuse, just as the average person beyond the West Coast would hardly know the difference between Caltech and CalPoly or between UCSD and USD. No brand is so powerful as to be known to all. But I am fairly certain that the OP was not asking about the reputation of those two universities among the masses but rather, in the context of graduate school admissions. If that is the case, for some types of graduate programs, I think Michigan does give students an advantage over MSU.</p>
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<p>Thank you for the response. You are right about the support role of TAs (GSIs) I suppose that you are getting the figures from this source:</p>
<p>[Information</a> About Graduate Student Instructors at the University of Michigan](<a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/gsi-sa/teach.html]Information”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/gsi-sa/teach.html)</p>
<p>The 3% figure is misleading; overall, GSI face-time is a lot more than 3% in U of M LSA; this year there are 1445 GSIs in LSA for 19,204 LSA students. That’s a lot of TAs! I’ve had students estimate their faculty contact time w/ TAs at 30%+</p>
<p>My point was that an LAC you get closer to 0%.</p>
<p>Reread annasdad’s post#9.</p>
<p>Out of MI where kids are raised to love one school and hate the other, no one else really cares at all.</p>
<p>UM has a great reputation. My undergrad and graduate degree’s from MSU have not held me back. I can assure you I’ve gotten a fine education at MSU and have no regrets.</p>
<p>One poster wrote: UM has “better students”. Better at what? Do you mean higher stats? OK, so… harder to get in. Do you actually believe the textbooks differ?? The material differs? </p>
<p>People who take the UM only attitude are very narrow minded. Sounds like UM or nothing. Stop discouraging students. It’s disgraceful. If you get into UM go. If you do not get into UM go to MSU. You can succeed at either. (By the way, friends son, now a JR at UM was rejected at SUNY Binghamton (NY states highly regarded state U), but accepted at UM. Surely that doesn’t mean that Binghamton is a better school, or does it… “better” students at Binghamton???</p>
<p>Just want to add: All my large lecture classes at MSU were taught by professors, not TA’s. Professors all had office hrs though personally, can’t remember needing extra help or any reason to meet with them. Was able to meet with professors in my dept when I wanted info on graduate school.</p>
<p>Should not be UM vs MSU. It’s like saying, UVa vs Boston Univ. Different rankings and overall student stats, but not a reason not to go to any of the four. Would you tell anyone that did not get into UVa- don’t bother to go to BU?</p>
<p>Snarlatron, as the link you provided shows, TAs actually teach 3% of classes. The rest of their involvement with students is purely support. Obviously, LACs won’t have TA involvement since most LACs do not have graduate students and those that do have very few. 1400 TAs in a college that has over 15,000 undergrads is not that bad. Harvard and Columbia have 3,000 graduate students in their Arts and Science units. I am not sure how many of those are TAs as opposed to RAs, but it is safe to say that it is more than 10%. Research universities must put their PhD students to work. Fortunately, graduate programs like Columbia, Harvard and Michigan have incredibly gifted and passionate PhD students, so they typically do good work as TAs.</p>
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<p>It might, but you have to check the catalog descriptions and course syllabuses of the courses that you would be interested in taking to see if that is true. In some cases that I have looked at, I have seen where the more selective school listed more material covered in a given course (or fewer courses to cover the same material) than a less selective school, presumably because they assume a higher minimum level of academic ability and motivation at the more selective school. This is not universally true, and even when it is true, it does not mean that the less selective school is “bad” (and some students may benefit from the slightly slower pace). Also, there could be specific courses where the less selective school covers more material than the more selective school. And when the selectivity difference is small, the differences of this nature may be small or rare.</p>
<p>Of course, none of these specific differences fit well into broad brush generalizations that are common when people compare schools, and any such differences need to be compared in detail to see if they exist and what they may be.</p>
<p>As far as TAs go, the usual big state university model is for large introductory courses to have a faculty member as the lead instructor, with TAs for discussion and lab sections. Only a few courses that are broken up into small sections like freshman English composition and beginning foreign language are likely to have TAs as lead instructors.</p>