How is UVM’s reputation for CS for a student likely to want to go into industry out of a bachelor’s degree?
How does it compare with schools like BU, UMass Amherst, Northeastern, URochester, RIT, WPI, Case Western, etc.? How about Canadian schools like Toronto or Waterloo?
If he wants to work in Silicon Valley, which of these schools would have name brand recognition out there?
UVM is in state for us and likely his cheapest option. The Canadian schools are also a bargain, given that our son could go for the Canadian citizen price. We’re in a position where we’d be full pay or nearly so at the top tier schools, and I’m just not sure they’re worth the extra money compared to places where he could go for cheaper or get a good chunk of scholarship money. (We’ve only been in this income bracket for 2 years, and have put 2 through college before him, so they would be a major stretch for us.)
If your son is a Canadian citizen or dual citizen, then the Canadian schools would indeed be quite a bargain – less even than in-state options in the US. Waterloo is quite well known in Silicon Valley and has a very good very strong reputation. Toronto also has a good reputation, although for CS Waterloo may be stronger. McGill is not quite as well known for CS, but is very well known overall and is likely a lot closer depending upon where you are in Vermont – certainly Burlington to Montreal is a reasonable drive. If your son is a Canadian or dual citizen and was born in the US then McGill would likely give you “Canadian born abroad” pricing, which may be the best deal in any English language university in North America.
UMass Amherst also has a good reputation for computer science, although not as strong as Waterloo. The company that I have retired from hires a lot of software engineers from UMass. Geographic proximity may be one reason for this.
I might add that if your son is a Canadian citizen by virtue of having a Canadian-born parent, then getting the “certificate of Canadian citizenship” can take a while so you need to either already have this or start early. Once a student has a certificate of Canadian citizenship getting the Canadian passport is quite quick. We went through the first step years ago for both daughters, and went through the second step more recently for our US-born dual citizen daughter who is currently studying in Canada.
“Brand name” is not really relevant to Silicon Valley employers. One survey showed that University of Phoenix is one of the top 10 colleges for their employees. What is important is getting internships or coops at Silicon Valley firms.
Waterloo is the Canadian leader in coop but their CS program is highly selective. Northeastern is a leader in coop in the US. Santa Clara University CS grads are highly sought after, its campus is in the middle of Silicon Valley!
McGill and Montreal are leaders in AI and tuition there for a never resident Canadian is C$4000/year.
Seconding that Waterloo and Toronto are likely the best value.
UVM isn’t notable in CS like many of the other schools you listed are, but as said above, notability isn’t really the most important thing in the CS world. UVM’s program is adequate for learning what you need in CS, but it will take more effort to get internships and the like at top companies when compared to known CS schools, co-op schools, both, etc. If you put in that effort, once there, no one knows who has a degree for where really. Hope that helps give some context.
In terms of other options that could beat the value, it’s going to be hard to find a school that will beat the values of 32K or so (Canadian or scholarships at American schools) for a known CS program or UVM as the in-state option. A few schools you listed offer significant merit, so I think I would focus on those and hope for the best, and then evaluate once you get acceptances and merit decisions back.
Realistically, the distant less convenient location of Vermont may mean less Silicon Valley recruiting (particularly smaller employers) than at schools like San Jose State or UC Santa Cruz. This is mainly applicable to one’s first job out of school. So a student there may have to do more first job searching and applying on his/her own, compared to one at a school that is more convenient to recruit at.
Thanks for the heads up on that. I almost went through the process to get the certificate of Canadian citizenship for all my kids last year, but then found out that “asserting” one’s non-US citizenship like this can make it difficult to get a US security clearance later if needed, so I held off to see if they would need the Canadian citizenship for anything. How long did the process take, and did the school require a passport? (I have friends who sent their Canadian by birth to a Canadian citizen in the US kid to Waterloo about 7 years ago, and they didn’t ask for any proof at all.) Or is it that he needs the Passport to enter the country long-term to study there?
Surely it’s harder to get those internships if you’re not at a school they tend to recruit from? My oldest graduated for Cornell (2015) and had companies (Silicon Valley and others) falling all over themselves to recruit him and pay him 6-figure salaries straight out of undergrad. He had summer internships at a small firm in DC, Zynga and Amazon, but he got those all through career fairs at school. I doubt he could have gotten them on his own, especially the first, after Freshman year. (He also participated in a UAV project team which helped him get bot the internships and the full-time job offers.) But with a change in financial status, we’re unlikely to get any finaid, so Cornell is going to be almost impossible to afford (if S3 got in there), thus we are looking for cheaper options that will still give S3 a great start. Alternately, he could agree to borrow (we can get the loan) to pay part of the tuition to a top tier school – given the salaries these kids command, he could easily pay back such an investment if that’s really the experience he wants.
DH and I are both Waterloo grads (CompEng and CS/Pure Math) so that’s where I’m leaning. I may be biased, but after touring there, Northeastern and Drexel (as well as others that have smaller co-op options) I still think Waterloo’s co-op program is the best in North America, and I think co-op is a great way to try out different kinds of companies before you graduate, as well as making you more employable.
I’m leaning strongly toward the Canadian options, with Waterloo at the top for our “country mouse” kid. He has close relatives in Toronto so there would be family nearby. But there are some differences in approach between the Canadian and US schools, and I’m not sure which approach would be a better fit for our son. [Very interesting about McGill giving an even cheaper price for never-resident Canadians! But I’m a bit put off by the fact that it’s very much not a dorm culture, which I think my S would benefit from for the first couple of years. Also this S is the only one who chose Spanish over French ]
Not sure about other Canadian schools but McGill requires proof of citizenship, not sure in what form. It would be similar in the US to showing proof of residency to get in state tuition. A university is not going to reduce tuition by tens of thousands of dollars based on a statement.
I have a dual citizen D18 who will likely attend college in Canada.
It took about nine months for my D to receive her Certificate of Citizenship. It was delayed a bit because the Canadian-ness comes only from my side, not my husband’s, and I went through a name change when I got married.
“How long did the process take, and did the school require a passport? (I have friends who sent their Canadian by birth to a Canadian citizen in the US kid to Waterloo about 7 years ago, and they didn’t ask for any proof at all.) Or is it that he needs the Passport to enter the country long-term to study there?”
Our experience was similar to @ShrimpBurrito, it took about 9 months. We did it however quite a few years ago. Since we had the certificate of Canadian citizenship already, getting a Canadian passport only took about an additional two or three weeks.
The school did not require Canadian citizenship for acceptance. However, they did require it in order for DD to be charged Canadian tuition rates. I don’t know whether or not it was needed for her merit scholarship because we had already sent it in (to establish that she was a Canadian for tuition purposes) before they informed us of her merit scholarship. We also needed it when she arrived at the border on her way to go to school, and again in order to sign up for her provincial health insurance card.
Between the Canadian tuition, a merit scholarship, and the current exchange rate, we have beat the $32k number mentioned above by a lot – we are paying roughly half that per year for tuition, fees, room and board (in a dorm that does have ivy growing on it), and health insurance. So far the process seems to be going very well and DD seems to be very happy at a very good school.
A year ago, the Canadian government instituted a rule that Canadian citizens must enter Canada with their Canadian passport. The one exception is for American citizens. Dual Canadian-American citizens can enter on their US passport. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/dual-canadian-citizens.asp
My kids were born in the US. When we moved back to Canada, I applied for their citizenship cards immediately. It was a long saga, and it took me over 3 years to get their cards. And that was after involving my MP. It was pretty much impossible for me to contact the authorities in charge of the process to find out where the cards were. I recommend that you start the process asap.
I agree that brand name isn’t that important in Silicon Valley. For a technical job, as long as you have a degree from a legitimate, accredited school, you’re good to go.
Not sure about that University of Phoenix statement, though. I’ve been in the Silicon Valley/San Francisco area for decades, and only recall working with a couple of people who had University of Phoenix degrees. And neither of them had technical jobs.
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