<p>Hey I'm an international student, I've got into both of the above mentioned universities for computer science. It's a really tough decision, I've heard that uwaterloo is very good for computer science. However in multiple rankings utoronto is ahead of uwaterloo not only as an overall university but also for computer science.</p>
<p>One more query, is the uwaterloo campus like the utoronto campus (st.george campus ie located in downtown)?</p>
<p>They’re both pretty good, eh? But then I don’t really know what I’m talking a-boat.</p>
<p>I need some proper answers here…</p>
<p>U of Waterloo is viewed as the place to go for math and comp sci. But either would be perfectly fine so go with fit. Microsoft hires a lot from Waterloo, for what that’s worth. </p>
<p>[Studentawards</a> Forum](<a href=“http://www.studentawards.com/Forum.aspx?g=forum]Studentawards”>http://www.studentawards.com/Forum.aspx?g=forum) is a good place to get the info you need.</p>
<p>For CS: Waterloo is a fantastic school, whereas Toronto isn’t even on the map.</p>
<p>^ what</p>
<p>I can say that Toronto is widely regarded as far better than Waterloo for CS. I almost applied to Toronto for CS PhD, though ultimately decided I wanted to stay in the US, but was told that Toronto is one of the best for CS. And every ranking supports that:</p>
<p>[ARWU</a> in Computer Science - 2010<a href=“Toronto%20is%20#10,%20Waterloo%20is%20unranked%2076-100”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/engineering/computer-science]QS”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/engineering/computer-science]QS</a> World University Rankings - Topuniversities<a href=“Toronto%20#10,%20Waterloo%20#36”>/url</a></p>
<p>And there are so many things to its name. For example, Stephen Cook formalized what is now the greatest question in CS: does P=NP? (The Clay Mathematics Institute names it as one of the 7 problems for which it will give $1 million to anyone who can give a proof.) Cook received the Turing Award (the “Nobel Prize” of CS) and has been a professor at Toronto for over 40 years. Since Cook did this in his first year as a prof at Toronto, and since CS was still a fledgling of a field then, Waterloo didn’t stand a chance against Toronto, which put itself on the map before virtually any other CS department in the world (the only ones that could compete with that kind of brilliance at the time were Stanford, MIT, and Yale). </p>
<p>The accolades that Toronto has leave Waterloo in the dust:</p>
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<p>[url=<a href=“http://web.cs.toronto.edu/dcs/why.htm]Why”>http://web.cs.toronto.edu/dcs/why.htm]Why</a> Study CS at U of T](<a href=“http://www.arwu.org/SubjectCS2010.jsp]ARWU”>http://www.arwu.org/SubjectCS2010.jsp)</p>
<p>Professor accolades: [Awards</a> and Accolades](<a href=“http://web.cs.toronto.edu/news/awards.htm]Awards”>http://web.cs.toronto.edu/news/awards.htm)</p>
<p>Or try this:</p>
<p>[Top</a> organizations in Computer Science](<a href=“http://academic.research.microsoft.com/RankList?entitytype=7&topDomainID=2&subDomainID=0&last=0&start=1&end=100]Top”>http://academic.research.microsoft.com/RankList?entitytype=7&topDomainID=2&subDomainID=0&last=0&start=1&end=100)</p>
<p>Notice that both Waterloo and Toronto have roughly the same number of publications, but Toronto’s have had nearly 2x the impact (citations).</p>
<p>Ask anyone in academia about the best CS department in Canada, and every CS prof will tell you without thought: Toronto. It’s not even a question.</p>
<p>FWIW, Stanford is my alma mater and I’m attending MIT for CS PhD; if given the choice, I’d easily choose Toronto, because it’s not only better regarded in my experience, but it has actual defined quality that backs up its prestige in CS.</p>
<p>Aren’t you the guy who thinks the ivies all belong in the top 20 for CS?</p>
<p>^ Yup. That’s because I know what I’m talking about. And I have lots of data and rankings to back it up. If you disagree, feel free to show why I’m wrong. And of course, back it up with sources, not just your inherent bias.</p>
<p>Gotta admit, Toronto looks better than I realized. My information was a bit old, and Toronto seems to have improved greatly. Waterloo has been strong for a long time.</p>
<p>But my info on the ivies is still current.</p>
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<p>No, Toronto has always been better. It became one of the premier CS departments in the early 70s and has stayed there. Waterloo may have improved, but it’s never been “strong” in an absolute sense, nor has it ever been stronger than Toronto. Your saying this about Toronto sounds as absurd to me as saying that Stanford isn’t on the map for CS while UT-Austin is incontrovertibly better, then admitting that Stanford has improved over the years while saying that UT has always been strong. No, Stanford, like Toronto, has been on the map since the early days of CS and has stayed there, while other contenders like UT and Waterloo have come into the fray later, but are still not as strong.</p>
<p>Hey thanks to both of you for the information and feedback…
@phantasmagoric … well i’ve previously gone through those rankings and I obviously felt that utoronto is better for CS. However I’ve heard that waterloo is better for undergraduate CS, and that utoronto is ahead in academics for masters. Do you think this is true?</p>
<p>And btw both of you’ll didn’t answer my question relating to the campus…!</p>
<p>I don’t think that’s true. I’ve often found it useless to make such distinctions - usually the quality of a grad division leaks over to the undergrad division, because the latter is exposed to the same things that led to a high ranking for the department: top professors, strong curriculum, research opportunities, etc.</p>
<p>I’m not saying Waterloo isn’t decent for CS, but Toronto’s definitely better.</p>
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<p>That’s because I haven’t been to either, and I doubt MisterK has either. ;)</p>
<p>@starbright Thanks for introducing me to studentawards.</p>
<p>^ Sure no problem, hopefully helpful.</p>
<p>While phantasmagoric provides some interesting and useful data, it is mostly excellent for selecting graduate school, not undergrad. Only a small subset of folks want to go to graduate school in their respective field, most care about a huge host of factors besides minutae about impact factors on publications by faculty relative to number of actual publications, lol. This is undergrad! Even for graduate school this would not be stellar criteria over and above other factors such as graduation rate, academic post placement into tenure track jobs, and most importantly, being able to work closely with particular outstanding faculty in one’s own research niche area. One should not be selecting graduate school on the basis of massive scales but rather by the guidance of faculty that help the student select the best graduate program for their particular interests. </p>
<p>I absolutely think going to an undergrad program that enables you to be involved in research is very important, but really for an undergrad, the difference between Waterloo and U of T in terms of research is a very very tiny distinction. Other factors such as the campus, student body, location, nature of the majors, and in this particular case, access to the coop program and jobs (which Waterloo CS is reknowned for), matter even more. </p>
<p>You probably can’t go wrong with either school for either future graduate work or employment after undergrad, so look at the other factors you care about and I think the student forums is a great place to get that extra detail.</p>
<p>And I say this as a professor and academic of 20 years at both top US and Canadian schools (myself and my spouse). I’ve mentored hundreds of kids about graduate school and have trained numerous dozens of my own graduate students (all of whom have gotten tenure track posts). While it’s quite likely our own kids might take an academic path, we would encourage our kids to find a school that fits and also happens to have some pretty good research opportunities. You can get those research opportunities as easily at Waterloo as U of T or a host of other good research institutions.</p>
<p>BTW, if you are interested in US MBA, rather than a PhD program, as you mention elsewhere, it wont matter which school.</p>
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<p>I have never seen or heard of a student who looks at these factors. Sure, these are the sorts of things that go into NRC rankings, but students selecting graduate school are choosing professors, so inevitably they will look at publications and impact. That ultimately decides everything you just mentioned - the more renowned the professor, the more successful their advisees are, etc.</p>
<p>For many students, these are concerns for undergrad. For them, research, renowned professors, resources, facilities, etc. (essentially, all that go hand-in-hand with a top grad program) are important as an undergrad. That’s why it’s useful to look at top grad programs even if you’re going for undergrad. Of course, if you don’t care about anything other than the appropriate courses and good placement in jobs, then most of those are useless. But I think a majority of entering undergrads would say that the quality of their professors, resources, facilities, etc. is an important factor to consider.</p>
<p>This might be slightly off-topic, but should I consider Waterloo/Toronto as schools to apply to as well (do they give decent financial aid to U.S. students)? What American schools are they comparable to in terms of CS strength?</p>