UPDATE to "BM Degree, Double Degree or Double Major?"

College Majors Music Major
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In April of 2016, as some of you might remember, I posted “BM Degree, Double Degree or Double Major?” here:

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/1881307-bm-degree-double-degree-or-double-major-p3.html

Can’t believe that a year went by so quickly! Now that my son’s college application journey is about to wrap up, I want to come back to this to express my 1) THANK YOU! to those of you who responded with such well thought out comments, recommendations and suggestions that turned out to be highly instrumental in my son’s decision making. I simply cannot thank you enough! And 2) with whatever that I’ve learned in the process, I also want to make some contributions to those others who are in a similar situation as my son.

The college application process has been extremely stressful for both my son and me. The main reason for this is simply that there wasn’t enough time in a day to accomplish all that needed to be for a kid who worked extremely hard to excel in both a highly rigorous IB program and his musical pursuits. He made it harder by committing himself to too many extracurricular interests. He had plenty enough EC activities, but he pursued anything he genuinely found interesting in spite of my objections after objections. His first SATI, SATII (MathII and Bio) and ACT tests were okay but we both felt he could improve with another round of tests. That meant more time needed to prepare for the next round of tests. In retrospect, we made a very stupid decision to take both SAT and ACT tests. We should have just picked one that produced better results, but for whatever the reason, we kept both on the table.

To aggravate the stress to a higher level, my son, of course, HAD to go to all the classmates’ parties, football games, proms, movies, school plays, etc. etc. Naturally, his daily violin practice routine soon became a “weekly” practice, that is, instead of practicing at least an hour or two a day just to even maintain, it became an hour or two A WEEK, often only 20 minutes right before driving to see his teacher. We came up with one excuse or another in explaining to his private teacher as to why he isn’t progressing. Having to drive him to his teacher an hour away, often in inclement weather, while he’s happily sleeping in the car, I kept thinking of what a waste of time and money (about $130 a lesson, including gas) with resentment welling up to my neck. Fortunately, his teacher has been through more than one such student in his decades of teaching practice and he was very sympathetic and understanding.

In spite of such neglect, my son was able to “wing it” through major youth symphony chair auditions, competitions, solo recitals, and concerts that seem to pop up once every two weeks that made me want to pull my hair out, whatever that still remained.

When the time came to apply to colleges, we decided to follow the conventional wisdom of applying to a certain number of “safeties,” “matches,” and “reaches” – and only those colleges that had at least a decent music program. By then, we’ve decided that pursuing a BA in Music is his best preference while fulfilling pre-med requirements with an alternative option of pursuing a double major depending on which college he gets himself into.

Our application strategy, particularly with essays, was to describe how that particular college’s music program could benefit my son’s growth and in what ways he could also contribute to their program. My son thoroughly studied each college’s music program and other aspects of the college in detailed, familiar terms, so that the admissions folks understood that my son knows what he’s after and that he wasn’t applying to that college “just because.” For others who are going to go through the college application process this coming year or next, this is extremely important to keep in mind. He also specifically mentioned that he’s interested in pursuing a music degree.

Thanks to my son’s over-committed activities, I wasn’t too happy with the qualities of his “prepared” violin pieces for the Arts Supplement. He could have done a whole lot better, but we ultimately had to settle with whatever that he was able to manage to put together. We chose two contrasting pieces: Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto (1st or 3rd mvmt, I don’t remember and I don’t even care to remember) and The Red Violin Caprices. To some colleges, we didn’t even bother submitting the Supplement material.

His quantitative stats at the time of application submission:

GPA: 3.95 UW; 4.64 W
Class Rank: 5/362
New SAT: 1520/1600
ACT: 33
SAT MathII: 770; SAT Biology: 720

(Note: as soon as we felt the scores were “within the range,” we stopped trying to improve further on them as we felt it was not only unnecessary but posed a health hazard.)

Sample Extracurricular Activities:

  • Concertmaster: major city youth symphony, all-state orchestra, national honor orchestra
  • First place in all in-state concerto competitions he entered and a couple of minor international competitions
  • Black Belt, Taekwondo, with various medals in state and national competitions
  • NHS, founder of Korean Club and Chess Club, AP Scholar
  • Captain and 1st Singles, Varsity Tennis
  • “Healing Through Music” volunteer at local hospital for 3 years
  • Teen Advisory Board at local library

(continuing next page…)

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The colleges he’s admitted to: Williams, Amherst, Pomona, Princeton U, UPenn, Dartmouth, Duke and 2 in-state private and public colleges.

The colleges he’s either waitlisted or denied: Yale, Harvard, Columbia, UChicago, Stanford, Brown, WashU and Vanderbilt (didn’t submit music supplement to the last two).

The colleges on top of our wish list prior to the results: Williams, Princeton, Harvard

The colleges that offered the best financial aid package: Princeton (and Williams close second)

The colleges we’ve narrowed down to and planning on visiting before making the final decision: Williams and Princeton

Being young and impressionable, my son is leaning more towards Princeton, but as a parent, I’m truly impressed with Williams’ quality, care, and support they put into the undergraduate education and experience. Even before the official result was announced, my son received an email from one of the college’s violin instructors, expressing her desire to work with him and inviting him to a workshop this summer in Switzerland. I couldn’t accept her invitation not even knowing whether Williams was going to accept him or not at the time. Besides, we had already made a big plan for the summer, so we had to politely decline the invitation due to the schedule conflict. Nevertheless, it left me with a very strong and positive impression on Williams.

After the official acceptance, I was impressed even further that parents of current Williams students reached out to us, followed by an email from the chairperson of the music dept and another email from the chairperson of the bio dept, followed by another email from a current student. All the research into the school here on CC have also left me with a very strong impression that the college truly focuses on their students’ success. Many folks attested to how Williams is truly supportive of those students who are double majors and how successful these students are in their pursuits not only while they’re at Williams but beyond. I feel a sense of reassurance and confidence that I can’t really get from the larger universities to the same degree, including Princeton.

I’m a bit biased in favor of Williams at this point but that’s perhaps due to my limited insights into Princeton as I’ve done more research into Williams than Princeton so far. I will have to spend more time learning about Princeton beyond what’s on paper and pay visits to both institutions before making the final decision. In the meantime, I’d very much appreciate your thoughts on Williams vs. Princeton.

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I’m not in a position to give an opinion about Princeton v. Williams, I just wanted to say that I appreciate you sharing about your son’s journey. My daughter is a freshman in a rigorous IB magnet program, and I can see that the pressure to excel in many areas and participate in others (some of which I don’t entirely see the point of) could lead to collapse. Wish me luck trying to slow her down, though.

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@noviceatoller - In my opinion, as long as your daughter is genuinely interested in participating in the activities, it’s better to allow her the freedom to do so as opposed to fighting them. If things are too overwhelming, she’s the first one to know and would put a break on them.

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He’ll know from touring the music facilities/professors and meeting other admitted students and current students who’ll he’ll likely interact with in the future as to where he wants to be. Their locations and communities are very distinct as well. I think on paper we could all try to differentiate these two schools, but as you’ve seen yourself, they provide quite different experiences that just can’t be explained with statistics or listings of opportunities/financial resources.

Please keep us posted as to what he selects, and why. Ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s looking forward to the superlative experiences awaiting him at wherever he chooses, not what could have been at the other.

P.S. My personal vote is for Williams :slight_smile:

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@nostalgicwisdom - “My personal vote is for Willaims.” Mind sharing some specifics as to why you’re in favor of Willaims?

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I have a penchant for writing obsessively long posts, so I’ll try to keep it brief.

Princeton emulates the liberal arts experience with promises of accessible faculty, a thriving residential community, and a nurturing atmosphere. In most of these aspects, it succeeds, but there will always be a slight barrier thanks to the high research output and demands of most faculty and the social hierarchy/elitism with the student body (eating clubs, Ivy reputation, etc.).

Williams is the quintessential liberal arts experience with a virtually exclusive focus on its undergraduates. The faculty at Williams have been selected primarily for their ability to teach and inspire undergraduates. The students there look out for each other, and the friendships formed feel more genuine and inclusive, rather than as a means to draw connections for the future.

One of my favorite teachers at Pomona was a '98 graduate of Amherst and a '06 graduate of Princeton. She gave some perspective on Princeton vs Pomona here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hxh4Qe6DPc&feature=youtu.be&t=57m33s It’ll make more sense watching the whole thing, but it’s an hour long. Lots of great insights about the small LAC experience, and it’s quite funny too! Of course it’s just one perspective, but she’s gotten both the elite LAC experience at Amherst and the elite Ivy experience at Princeton (by serving as an assistant master for the undergrads as well).

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@nostalgicwisdom - Thanks for the link. I’ll take a close look.

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Tigger Dad, thanks for sharing this and I hope we can hear what he chooses ultimately.

t First, these are great choices and the results of your son’s applications would seem to argue that all that stress was worth it. For the sake of others, I just want to say that there are cases where kids pursue one thing single-mindedly, even at the expense of academic rigor, and still get great results with elite colleges. It seems clear that TiggerDad’s son did all these things because he WANTED to, not “to get in.” And did VERY well. I just worry that some will read this post and think they need to have activities at this level and in this number to do well with admissions :slight_smile:

Both Williams and Princeton are great choices. They are very different, so the ultimate decisions may be easier than between two schools that are similar. I have relatives who went to both…

I go out to MassMOCA and the Clark Museum quite often. Williamstown is beautiful, surrounded by mountains, close to Vermont and NY, an area with some culture but also remote in some ways. Small, personal, liberal arts environment. Wonderful alumni network. Small classes, probably taught by professors.

At Williams, a wonderful music department by reputation The site says 500 students participate in music and there are "approximately 125 concerts a season ranging from student recitals and ensembles to visiting artists of national and international stature. " Students can play in the Berkshire Symphony. There are lessons, chamber music, and advanced music performance classes for credit.

Princeton is in an affluent suburb, close to NYC by train, very different location. The larger undergrad body is broken down into smaller communities in the residential system. http://www.princeton.edu/main/campuslife/housingdining/undergraduate/

In our experience with another Ivy, this house system is extremely effective in providing the intimacy of a small school within the walls of a larger university. Students develop a real feeling of home, hang out in the dining hall, and have adults around consistently for support. However, the presence of the larger university and many other houses means meeting that many more people in your department, in your activities, and less claustrophobia for some who prefer access to more social opportunities.

Princeton also has a performance certificate http://www.princeton.edu/music/certificate-of-music/ and by offering that, honors the needs of musicians who want to have access to opportunities in “applied music”, aka performance. This means lessons and performance opportunities for credit and some classes with a performance component. There is also a double degree program with the Royal College of Music in London.

Finally, a drawback to universities can be the system of lectures with grad students teaching sections, and grading, so that students do not develop as many personal relationships with faculty. and learning might be more passive, so to speak. However, liberal arts colleges will indeed have some large lecture classes, including sciences, and at the same time, the music dept. at Princeton will be a relatively small department with more interaction with faculty and smaller classes.

Princeton has grad programs in music for composition and musicology. I don’t know if undergrad musicians get to play grad student compositions, but I do know that Princeton has a top notch, progressive, very creative composition PhD program for composers and wonder if that could be an asset. I don’t know but worth asking.

I think these two are both wonderful options. In some ways… I would lean toward Princeton if the musical experience can be personalized, if the house system offers community, and your son finds the the larger university and relative proximity to NYC appealing. But then again, Williams offers an assuredly personalized experience in beautiful surroundings that aren’t that far from NYC or Boston, and has a vibrant music department. Tough call!

It may just come down to your son’s personality and gut feeling after visiting!! Let us know!!

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Is he still doing a gap year? Or has he decided to go after all? Would it be easier to do music at school than not at school? If yes, will he feel out of step with peers? Or is he excited? I did a gap year way before it was called that, and before anyone else did it, and it really felt like I got out of step somehow, but that was back in another century.

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Congratulations on two great acceptances. Wanted to correct what I see as a misstatement above: At Princeton, graduate students do not teach any undergraduate classes. That is a distinguishing feature of Princeton over other Ivies. Grad students may assist in labs or in precepts with Q and A, but do not teach. Princeton wants to be primarily an undergraduate intuition. There is a very minor presence of grad students, no law school, no med school, no business school, so campus remains undergraduate focussed. While there as a grad student, I saw seniors working in the lab at levels comparable to second year grad students. They published papers and had the same access to faculty that we did. It was phenomenal, and the intellectual level of the student body was astounding (I was a Penn undergrad, so it’s hard to admit, but true).

An additional feature of Princeton that works in its favor is the location. It is highly accessible by plane or Amtrak, and going to NYC (or Philly) is an easy (and inexpensive) local train ride for a nice break. My hubby played bari sax in a non-university swing band that ran out of Princeton while we were students. They often gigged in NYC and around the local area (the pros slipped him in without a union card, but that’s another story).

Ironically, hubby’s close friend went to Williams. He was a bass player (though a Mol Bio major). Had a great experience there academically and musically. Now on the west coast with a biotech firm, but still has a band that gigs regularly at clubs in SF.

It seems your S is in a no-lose situation! Good luck as you work through this decision!

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@compmom - Yes, S still wants to take a gap year, in spite of something very interesting that contained in the mail we received from the Princeton’s FA office yesterday.

While my S has been expressing his wish to take a gap year since his junior year in high school, I had an ulterior, financial motive in fully supporting that idea. Our 2015 financial data displayed a sudden and significant increase in income due to company stock exercise. When filing the CSS/Profile and PFAA (Princeton’s internal FA application), I made a note of the atypical nature of our 2015 financial situation. Naturally and as expected, most of the colleges that accepted my S hardly gave any grant money. Amherst only gave $4,000, for example. Pomona was more generous, then Williams and Princeton offering the most generous amount. Still, a bit too high to comfortably send my son to either place, so the idea of taking a gap year sounded great. My son wanted it, and since our income would go back to normal in 2016, he’d get a much lower EFC when he enroll the following year.

Then the letter came from the Princeton’s FA office. It said, to my total surprise, that if we bring our 2016 income tax filing to the Preview visit day, they’d adjust the EFC based on that year’s data and ignore the calculation based on the 2015 data. I was floored when I read this! I never realized that any college would go to that extent of making it affordable and workable for the accepted student families. I was impressed!

In spite of this sudden turn of events, however, I’m still going to honor my son’s wish to take a gap year to do all the things that he’s been so wanting to do but never had the time to do. He just has too many interests. He wants to learn to cook, learn his parents’ native language, wants to produce his YouTube music channel, learn audio and video editing, and the list goes on and on.

So, yes, he’s going to take a gap year. :slight_smile:

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Regarding @compmom comments about EC activities and their impact on admissions to elite colleges, I assure you that having a long list of EC is NOT necessarily a good thing. My S had a very strong averse reaction at even a slightest hint of having to do something just “for college admissions,” so I learned early on to keep my mouth shut. He and his older brother were influenced by Jackie Chen when they expressed their wish to take on Taekwondo. The fact that I used to teach martial arts when I was young probably influenced them in that direction, as well. He and his older brother were and still are archrivals in tennis since very young, and their favorite way to relax is watching various YouTube videos of tennis matches on their cell phones. S started Korean Club because he wants to learn the language and the culture, most likely influenced by K-pop music and dramas; he started Chess Club because he loves chess (he was a scholastic state chess champion in K-3 division and the highest rated chess player in the state at that time - long ago). So, no, he never did anything against his heart’s leaning (even those “imposed” activities that were required for NHS membership, he did gladly mainly because these activities gave him time a chance to be with best friends).

Someone posted a thread somewhere here in CC regarding how important the EC activities are or not. I think the quality matters more than the quantity. In fact, my S intentionally discarded many EC activities off and only used the ones that he’s been involved longer and more meaningfully. If S were to have just the music related activities, I wouldn’t have worried about the lack of “other” type of activities. For admissions to elite colleges, though, I’d imagine that the level of quality music related activities should be high. One of my son’s best friends, to my son’s consternation, learned that he got rejected by every single elite colleges he applied to in spite of scoring the perfect ACT and SAT scores and with higher GPA than my son. His only options are now either Purdue or UCLA, both excellent schools, just not the schools of his dream. His music related activity was pretty much limited to his participation in his high school orchestra and the all state.

The bottomline is that EC’s should be built based on the child’s own long-term genuine interest as opposed to “for college.”

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@songbirdmama - Thank you for your input. Yes, location will play a huge role in my son’s final decision. We’re both looking forward to the Preview day. Based on what S’s been seeing on the Internet photos and videos (online college tours), he’s hugely favoring Princeton right now. Knowing him, Princeton suits his personality better. For academic success, especially for a student wanting to do pre-med and music, I’m the other way, leaning heavily towards Williams. For academic experience (both on campus and off campus), though, I’m with my son. As a parent, however, things like Princeton’s reputation for grade deflation does concern me, as that would mean even harder for someone wanting to do both pre-med AND music. A friend of mine, when he took his son to Princeton for a visit some years ago, was discouraged by one of the admissions staff to even consider music as a minor at Princeton. I’ve heard from various sources that it’s a tough place for pre-med students, let alone for those who also major in music. This is why making a decision between these two colleges is so tough. They each have definite pros and cons.

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Princeton no longer has grade deflation. They got rid of the policy to cap A’s to 35% of each class. The GPA has been steadily rising. At this day and time, the average GPA at both Williams and Princeton is comparable (around a 3.4-3.5).

If Princeton fits his personality better…then, it should be Princeton. Not every student needs or desires the level of intimacy Williams and other LACs provide. Princeton, despite being a large university, offers one of the most undergraduate focused experiences, so he’s not losing out much in terms of making relationships with people there.

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@nostalgicwisdom - Whew! that’s good to know. :)>- I just purchased tickets to visit Princeton, so we’ll be more definitive after the visit. Oh, I did see the most of the video that you linked earlier. She sure uses lots of f words, but she was witty and funny. I enjoyed it.

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The authenticity of your son’s activities shines through, Tigger Dad ( I do martial arts myself!).

I am so glad that there are folks here who know Princeton well. It’s great to hear professors teach the classes, without TA’s or TF’s. Princeton clearly has a wonderful focus on undergrads. Sorry for any misleading info and hope everyone reads the whole thread.

ps I have a kid who was looking at a PhD program at Princeton. This must mean doctoral students don’t teach!

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@compmom - In all frankness, for everyone who’s wondering about the value of EC’s (there’s currently a discussion going on in another thread about this very topic), I really don’t know what sort of impact that my son’s non-music related EC activities had on the admission results, such as earning a black belt in TKD or tennis or finding a club or two, etc. Obviously, none of these are significant for those live audition-based, BM degree pursuing applicants, so my questioning the merits of these non-music EC’s is directed at those applicants who are trying to follow the similar path as my S. My best “guess” is that, higher the level of musical talent, the less significant these activities and vice-versa, perhaps. There’s been so much emphasis placed on doing a certain kind of EC’s for the sake of enhancing the college entrance odds. I wish that, instead of asking what kinds of EC’s or looking at others’, the parents help discover their children’s genuine interests and passions and provide the resources for them to pursue them. I like seeing EC’s that are built on such and reflecting such passions in their essays.

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Just want to clarify: I mentioned grad students teaching sections of classes, and doing grading, but I did not say that they actually teach classes (meaning give the lectures. If Princeton does not have grad teaching assistants/fellows, I am wondering how the grad students are funded. I found 5 or so fellowships in the department I was interested in looking at, but that would not cover very many of the department’s grad students.

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Ah! We’ve had a misunderstanding. Princeton does use grad students as graders, lab assistants and preceptors (TA’s). They are not responsible for course content or lectures though. I did have grad students teach actual courses at another Ivy (foreign language and religious studies class) and this was what I referred to when I stated grad students don’t teach at Princeton! Sorry if there was confusion.