UPenn ED vs. The World **DILEMMA**

Chance Me / Match Me!
1

Okay so I am new to CC but have spent enough time reading discussions here to recognize that my qualifications don’t guarantee me a spot anywhere, let alone a prestigious school. I’m a plain Jane applicant with decent stats, but no hooks whatsoever. So I’m in a bit of a pickle because I am a UPenn legacy, and the fact that Penn only gives legacy status favorable preference in the ED round basically means that applying to Penn ED is my best and possibly only chance at an Ivy. But I have my reservations- if I do get in, I might 1. feel guilty about being admitted on criteria other than my own merit and/or 2. wonder if I could have gotten into Harvard, Yale, or Columbia, which I loved when I toured. That regret might kill me, but if it’s not Penn, it might be my state school. Still great, with stellar resources, faculty, and all I guess, but the caliber is just not the same… What should I do? And in the meantime feel free to chance me, haha

Objective:

SAT I (breakdown): 2290 (770 R, 740 M, 780 W) probably won’t send
ACT (breakdown): 35 (36 E, 34 M, 35 R, 35 S, 11 W)
SAT II: Math 2-800, Bio 800
Unweighted GPA (out of 4.0): 4.0
Rank (percentile if rank is unavailable): N/A
AP (place score in parenthesis): APUSH (5), Calc BC (5/5), Lang (5), Stats (5), Bio (5), Spanish (4), World (4)
IB (place score in parenthesis): N/A
Senior Year Course Load: AP Chem, AP Physics, AP Psych, AP Lit, Multivariable Calc, Anatomy & Physiology, Band
Major Awards (USAMO, Intel etc.): HOSA national finalist, hopefully I’ll get national merit

Subjective:

Extracurriculars (place leadership in parenthesis): Varsity cross country (captain), varsity track, Model UN (vice president), student government (treasurer), youth orchestra (section leader), 10 years of piano, 7 years of horn and minor awards for those, very involved at church
Job/Work Experience: N/A
Volunteer/Community service: Spent time at a nursing home regularly, and NHS stuff
Summer Activities: ALA Girls State

I’m an Asian female in a semicompetitive state. I think I’ll manage to write acceptable essays, and my recommenders should be pleasant.

Thanks to anyone who has read this post all the way through lol help

2

Nice stats! What is your instate school? The quality of state schools varies a lot. Also, there are lots of schools between Ivies and your state school that you could apply to. :slight_smile:

Do you want to run in college?

The UPenn legacy preference in the ED round is a pretty big bump. As the saying goes, a bird in the hand…

3

Thanks! It’s actually UMich, so I should be grateful I live here haha. That’s a good point- I just worry that I’ll end up wishing I had applied to Penn ED if I don’t get in somewhere more prestigious… I’m far too slow to run in college. And true, so do you think I should just take advantage of the situation, even though legacy preference is unfair and generally resented? As I’m writing this I see I’ll just have to figure out what I prioritize more…

4

Life is unfair and the world revolves around contacts, and such. There will always be people who get jobs through connects and things like that. If you have such advantages, the thing to do is prove you deserve to be there once given the opportunity. I wouldn’t feel bad about the legacy advantage. It’s not like you are not competitive. Your stats are great! You’re not some dumb kid getting in because daddy is some corporate CEO or mom is some actress, or because of your sports prowess.

You are fortunate in having a great state flagship as a backup option.

5

Why would you have to go to your state school if you didn’t get into an Ivy? You’re a very strong student and could probably get into a fair share of top-tier schools with decent financial aid–not that UMich isn’t a great option. Only apply ED somewhere if you absolutely love it. If you’re still harboring dreams of Harvard and Yale, apply to those places. You’re coming from a very realistic place, but honestly, if you love other schools more than Penn, you might regret not at least applying to those places more than you’d regret not getting into somewhere as prestigious as an Ivy. And no rule says that you won’t get into Penn without the Legacy/ED aiding you–you’re competitive for admissions there, with the legacy bump or not.

6

I think it’s a bit sad that you refer to yourself as a “plain Jane applicant with decent stats”. It may be partly a reflection of how intensely competitive things are, but I suspect it’s also a reflection of your own self-image. I would suggest that you consider changing that.

Your GPA, curricular rigor, test scores and extracurriculars are all quite strong, and very consistent. The combination of GPA, curricular SAT I and II, ACT, and APs all says that you can easily handle the academics anywhere. You have 7 APs, 5 of them with 5’s, including BC calculus as a junior. That’s impressive. BTW, I would send SATs as well as ACT scores - they’re quite solid, and another point in your favor. I believe Penn requires all scores.

I understand that you don’t have any huge “hooks”, but you seem like a strong applicant, more than just a competitive one. I think you should get in to a number of excellent schools IF you market and present yourself well. But that’s where I don’t have a good sense of you. What is your “passion”, and what are you considering doing with your life? None of that comes out in the OP. You have the stats to get in anywhere, but you need to sell schools on who you are as a person and why they should give a spot to you over someone else. “I think I’ll manage to write acceptable essays, and my recommenders should be pleasant” doesn’t convey a ton of confidence. Confidence - not arrogance, but confidence - is something that schools generally like. The student who is confident that she belongs and has a plan is going to generally make better use of their resources than someone who is aimless and unsure of herself, no matter how qualified.

You seem to have a strong all around background. Your math background is excellent. Penn does have a number of very prestigious and competitive dual degree programs, if those interest you, which are very competitive. It’s also a very interdisciplinary school where you can do things like create your own dual degree program or submatriculate into a graduate program, or engage in service opportunities. I don’t have enough of a sense of you to tell if any of those options might make sense for you. What is it that you loved about Harvard, Yale and Columbia when you visited?

I think that if your image of yourself is that of a “plain Jane” and you convey that to schools, that you will be doing yourself a disservice, and you may well limit yourself. I don’t have enough of a sense of who you are to get a feel for where you might fit best, but you don’t sound passionate about UPenn. I’d say that it really comes down to you. If you are willing to go for it and put yourself out there aggressively for schools, there’s no reason that you need to limit yourself by applying ED to somewhere that doesn’t inspire you, and you have the qualifications to get into lots of places. But if you are stuck in “plain Jane” mode then ED to Penn may be your safest bet. It’s your choice. Personally, with your academic record and background, I’d go for it.

7

Thank you so much for this thoughtful and insightful reply- I will remember this and take your points into consideration as I make my decision and apply. I haven’t done my research and haven’t visited Penn (scheduled to go in a few weeks) so I was not aware of its interdisciplinary programs, but that is incredibly appealing to me! I have no single “passion” and always feel at a loss when asked what I would like to study because a diverse array of subjects really do pique my interest. I love studying biology, but I love learning about sociocultural phenomena just as much, so I always thought I would flourish at a school that both accommodates and encourages pursuit of multiple concentrations. As well, neuroscience has recently caught my eye precisely because of its interdisciplinary nature. But I have done no extracurricular activity providing any clue to this (I love my ECs and could wax eloquent about them in an interview but I’m pretty sure they’re minimally applicable to a future career path), and I have already written a rough draft for common app that discusses character rather than an academic or topical passion. How can I convey my interests when there’s no space left on the application?

8

I’m not sure about the Common App, but the Universal College Application has a 150 word essay on one of your activities plus an optional “Additional Information” area to write about anything else that you want to address. There are also often supplemental questions for specific colleges such as “Why _____?” where you could convey some of your interests. Penn has a Common App supplemental question about why you would be a good fit at the College of your choice, for example:

http://blog.■■■■■■■■■■■■/2014/11/07/tips-for-answering-the-university-of-pennsylvania-supplemental-essay-prompts/

These are great opportunities to discuss your interests and why you think a specific school would fit them, and to show interest. Taking the time to find out what opportunities are available shows focus and a plan. It shows that you have taken a serious interest in the school, and looked beyond just the name recognition.

In terms of the schools that you have mentioned:

  1. Penn has a huge neuroscience program, both through CAS and the medical school. For undergrads you can major in Biology with a concentration, or in the interdisciplinary Biologic Basis of Behavior (BBB) program, or in Cognitive Science:

https://www.sas.upenn.edu/bbb/content/studying-neuroscience-penn
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/bbb/content/about

In a slightly different direction, Penn also has a dual degree program in Computer and Cognitive Science where you get dual BA and BSE degrees.

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/undergraduate/degrees/dual-degrees.php

IF this was of interest to you, you could do a really interesting program combining this with something like a minor in BBB or Biology with a Neuroscience focus.

  1. Neuroscience is a tremendous focus at Columbia, which has the Kavli Institute for Brain Science, the Zuckerman Mind Behavior Institute, and other interdisciplinary programs. They have a Neuroscience and Behavior interdisciplinary major:

http://kavli.columbia.edu/about/columbia-neuroscience
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/biology/pages/undergrad/cur/majors/neuro.html

  1. Neither Yale nor Harvard currently offer an undergraduate neuroscience major - both are a bit less interdisciplinary than Penn or Columbia, or some of the schools discussed below. Yale has an Interdepartmental Neuroscience program through the medical school and a combined Neuroscience graduate program:

https://medicine.yale.edu/neuroscience/academics/index.aspx
http://bbs.yale.edu/neuroscience/

Undergrads can pursue Neuroscience through Biology, Psychology,

Harvard doesn’t have a Neuroscience interdisciplinary focus, but it does hav a Neurobiology undergraduate major:

http://lifesciences.fas.harvard.edu/neurobiology

Harvard Medical School has a graduate Neuroscience program as well, though I’m not sure how accessible that is to undergraduates.

In addition to these, some other places to consider with strong interdisciplinary programs in general and neuroscience in particular include Duke, UChicago and Stanford. Chicago doesn’t have a separate Neuroscience major (it’s part of Biology), but they do have an interdisciplinary graduate program, and a minor in Computational Neuroscience. Duke has a huge interdisciplinary Neuroscience program, and offers both BA and BS degrees:

http://www.dibs.duke.edu/education/undergraduate-neuroscience

Duke, like Penn, is very interdisciplinary, with the opportunity to design your own major, get multiple degrees, and get involved in interdisciplinary or engagement projects. They have an interdisciplinary program called Bass Connections with a number of themes and projects, one of which is “Brain and Society”:

https://bassconnections.duke.edu/theme/brain-and-society

You might want to check out the following CC threads:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/1522146-does-yale-have-an-undergraduate-neuroscience-major.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1198228-neuroscience-in-harvard-stanford-princeton-yale.html

Educate yourself if this is a serious interest, and find ways to work it into your applications. Your ECs don’t need to relate, but if it is a real interest, you want to show it at some point.

9

Sorry to be so long-winded, but a few more thoughts.

  1. I think you did a great job articulating yourself with this statement above: "I love studying biology, but I love learning about sociocultural phenomena just as much, so I always thought I would flourish at a school that both accommodates and encourages pursuit of multiple concentrations. As well, neuroscience has recently caught my eye precisely because of its interdisciplinary nature." I think you could position yourself very nicely as someone interested in the intersection between biology/neurobiology and behavior/sociocultural studies. You may have no single "passion", but you seem to have a real interest in the interdisciplinary interconnection between these vast areas of study, which is a growing area of academic interest. That would fit beautifully into Penn's BBB major (possibly with a second major or a minor in the social sciences) or into Duke's interdisciplinary program, among others. I think you could articulate this interest clearly in some of the supplemental questions, and keep the focus of your essay on character, but I think that you can keep your breadth of interests while still showing a "focus", rather than seeming vague and without direction. I think you'd look a lot more interesting that way, and still have plenty of freedom to move in different directions when you actually start somewhere next fall.
  2. I forgot to discuss Stanford above. Like Harvard and Yale, it doesn't have a "neuroscience" major (it does have an interdisciplinary neuroscience PhD program), though you can do a neuroscience honors concentration within Biology, or study it within psychology. Robert Sapolsky at Stanford is a bioloanthropologist/neuroscientist who is a MacArthur "genius award" winner, and who is very approachable and likes teaching undergrads. Stanford has recently started a Neuroscience Institute:

https://neuroscience.stanford.edu/about/about-us

If you are interested in the more cognitive science aspect of neuroscience, Stanford also has an interesting interdisciplinary major in Symbolic Systems (somewhat similar to Penn’s Computer and Cognitive Science major):

https://symsys.stanford.edu

Like Penn, Stanford also offers the option to get an early master’s degree (which they call “co-terminal”; Penn calls it “submatriculation”), in the same or a different subject. When I was at Stanford decades ago I did a double major in Comparative Literature and Applied Math (mostly what Symbolic Systems now is, though it didn’t exist at the time) and found that Linguistics kept coming up as a common intersection between the two, so I applied for an did a co-terminal MA in Linguistics.

  1. I don't know if MIT is your cup of tea, but it has terrific cognitive and neuroscience programs. They have a major in Brain and Cognitive Sciences:

http://bcs.mit.edu/academics/undergrad.html

They also have a graduate program in neuroscience, and students have the option of taking courses at Harvard.

http://neuroscience.mit.edu

  1. Among the Ivies, Brown also has a good neuroscience program, including an undergrad concentration:

http://neuroscience.brown.edu/undergraduate/

Brown’s a great undergraduate school and a nice environment. It’s worth taking a look at.

  1. More on Duke. In addition to the Neuroscience major, they have something called "Program II", where students basically design their own entire undergraduate curriculum (it's more than a major, it's an entire self-designed curriculum, which only has to fulfill the distribution requirements).

http://program2.duke.edu

People with very interdisciplinary interests have designed their own program of studies combining fields. The following lists some past programs that have involved neuroscience:

http://program2.duke.edu/academics/titles/sciences

Another program which could appeal to your “sociocultural” interests is Global Cultural Studies, offered as both a major and minor:

http://literature.duke.edu/undergraduate/major-minor

Duke also offers “certificates” in specialty areas which you can get along with a major (and possibly with Program II). They have one in something called “Decision Science” which might possibly interest you:

http://dibs.duke.edu/research/d-cides/education/certificate

You could do something very interesting with a major in Neuroscience, a major/minor in a social science or humanities, and a certificate in Decision Science (or you could design it all yourself as part of Program II).

  1. Finally, your "safety" is UMichigan, a darn good school, which does have a neuroscience undergrad program at the intersection between Biology and Psychology:

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/neurosci

Your grades and scores should make Michigan a relatively certainty for you, which is a great luxury not many people have. The “worst case” scenario would have you end up at a really good school. With that fallback and your strong stats, you can afford to look around at a bunch of these options and figure out which ones fit you best. Penn could be “the one”, but there are plenty of other options, and with a well-articulated interest you may come across as more than a “plain Jane”.

10

As a final piece of advice, I’d check this out regarding what Penn “looks for”:

http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/apply/what-penn-looks-for

Think about this when working on your essay and application. It’s probably applicable to more schools than just Penn, with slight differences.

Good luck!

11

You actually have a different problem than you think. You are very well placed for elite schools so the question isn’t is Penn your best and only shot? The question is how much do you like Penn? I would be very surprised if you don’t get admitted via ED. The acceptance rate for legacy applicants is close to 45%. Go and visit. If you don’t like it, do not apply because chances are you will be accepted.

Do your parents get and keep the Pennsylvania Gazette (alumni magazine)? Last year, , the Gazette had a great article about Penn’s admission process, including ED. You may want to read it. More important, it has some good general college application advice for students and parents. http://thepenngazette.com/five-is-four-cs-%E2%80%A8and-the-right-road-to-college/

12

That’s a great article, and a terrific framework for evaluating potential fits. Thanks for posting the link.

13

Listen your academics are awesome so if you only got in because you were legacy ED, it wouldn’t be “robbing it of someone”. You could do the work at Penn judging by your stats. It’s not like your a mediocre student who got in because your parent donated a building. I think you should go for it if you want to.

14

I know your school doesn’t rank but approximately where do you stand in the class? Your grades and stats are certainly strong but your EC’s won’t stand out in the early rounds at schools like Harvard and Yale. Visit Penn and see how you like it. It’s a wonderful school and the campus is really nice, especially given its urban setting. Your best bet, by far, is applying ED to Penn.

15

If you like Penn, without a doubt ED there. however, if you dislike it, there is no reason to get in an ivy only to dislike it and you should just apply SCEA to Harvard or whatever your first choice is, and perhaps apply penn regular (or not at all) and the others regular. The key thing is what you like! Then, everything else will fall in place.

Also, if you don’t choose penn, perhaps consider some matches and low reaches such as applying to Emory or Georgetown

16

@renaissancedad , I am floored by the thoroughness of your response. I never expected such extensive feedback when I posted originally! Thank you so very much for taking the time to relay some of your knowledge, of impressive breadth and depth, to an anonymous young person. That is incredibly selfless. Several of the programs you described seem fascinating to me, and I already know I will refer back to the list you compiled here many times as I zero in on my aspirations for college and career. Thank you once again. Your help is invaluable!

17

If you do apply ED and get in, don’t feel bad about your legacy status, because you’re certainly qualified enough to go to Penn. I wouldn’t worry about the legacy, I’d be more concerned with making sure you really want to go there, because if you apply ED but don’t truly want to be there, you’re taking that spot from someone who may want it more, so just keep that in mind. As previous commenters have stated, only apply ED if Penn is truly your top choice and you would have no regrets about missing your chances to apply to other schools.UMichigan and Penn are both excellent schools (I love them both haha), so no matter where you end up, I’m sure you’ll do great!