UPenn v. Princeton

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
1

<p>Hi Guys!
I have recently been accepted to both Upenn and Princeton, and im having a really hard time deciding. I know both are great schools (maybe princeton is a bit better?) but here are some things about me...</p>

<p>i looove chill/easygoing people who are intelligent but still like to have a good time</p>

<p>i love diversity (I am an african american female, so if anyone could tell me alittle about any discrimination or whatnot that goes on on campus that'd also be great)</p>

<p>I basically want to go someplace laid-back but with stellar academics, a close-knit and warm community, and an active social scene. </p>

<p>Im also alittle concerned about Princeton's eating clubs, are they really as exclusive as they sound? I'd appreciate anyone's feedback, thanks again!</p>

2

<p>jadedgrl what kind of education are you looking for? Do you seek a very expansive, career-oriented, pre-professional education with the resources of large world-class professional schools (i.e. Wharton, Huntsman, etc.) or do you want a rigorous education focused almost entirely on undergraduates and their interests and needs, with smaller classes, myriads of opportunities for research and study abroad, and more face-time with top professors in their fields (Princeton). </p>

<p>The Princeton community is hard-working and intense, but Princetonians are experts on having a good time. We definitely follow the "work hard, play hard" slogan. It is not hard to see some undergraduates playing softball, wiffleball, ultimate or frisbee golf in the many green areas on campus. </p>

<p>Finally, the diversity here at Princeton is just as good as almost any other Ivy League school, especially in socio-economic diversity, as Princeton meets 100% of demonstrated need for Financial Aid, and Princeton's FA is extremely generous. </p>

<p>Finally, Princeton's eating clubs are nothing to worry about, in fact, Princeton's eating clubs are not so much of what normally comes to mind when you think of a "club" (nightclub?). Eating clubs are just houses on Prospect Street where most upperclassmen and -women take their meals. They also host a lot of parties and other events on campus, and generally they are open to the entire school community on Thursdays and Saturdays as long as you have a PU ID card (sometimes students from other colleges can get in too as guests if they have a college ID card as well). They are actually quite egalitarian in this regard. Everyone goes to the eating clubs to have a good time on Saturday nights, and its a great way to meet your classmates, and also the upperclass students that often times are too busy working on their junior papers or theses to meet underclassmen. </p>

<p>I think you would be a great fit for Princeton, and as an African-American myself, Princeton really is a great place for us. Discrimination is a problem for other universities possibly, but surely not at Princeton (or else I'm sure Cornel West would have something to say about it...by the way did I mention that if you hang out by 1879 Hall you might run into him?)</p>

<p>If you have any questions about Princeton, you are welcome to PM me and let me know. BTW I am a host for Princeton's april hosting program, and if you are interested in visiting campus for april hosting or any other time in April, PLEASE let me know.</p>

<p>tokyo</p>

3

<p>
[quote]
or do you want a rigorous education focused almost entirely on undergraduates and their interests and needs, with smaller classes, myriads of opportunities for research and study abroad, and more face-time with top professors in their fields (Princeton).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Heh.</p>

<p>You know, I never did understand this mythical Princetonian delusion that they and only they care about undergrads. My little brother is a freshman at Princeton. He has TAs, and much like Penn's TAs, they are brilliant but terrible teachers and even worse English speakers.</p>

<p>Just becase a professor has graduate students doesn't mean he doesn't give a rat's rear about his/her undergrads. I am on a first-name basis with my professors. I've even gone out drinking with my professors, both here in Philadelphia and on the other side of the world when one of them organized a "Penn Day in Seoul" for all residing students--and rest assured they are every bit as accomplished in teaching and research as their colleagues at Princeton.</p>

<p>I confess I am not African-American and I certainly don't pretend to speak for them. However there is no shortage of African-Americans at Penn, and you might be able to find people to better answer your questions at the WEB DuBois College House (<a href="http://dolphin.upenn.edu/%7Esouls%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~souls&lt;/a&gt;) and Makuu, the black cultural center (<a href="http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/makuu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/makuu/&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

4

<p>I wouldn't call it a "mythical delusion" at all. I have had both professors and grad students teach my classes this year, and they are both extraordinarily accessible and helpful. My writing seminar is taught by the director of the entire writing program, and she's on a first-name basis with all her students.</p>

5

<p>What makes it a delusion is not that it exists. The delusion stems from believing that Princeton and only Princeton offers this.</p>

<p>And that is indeed a delusion.</p>

6

<p>I have to second JohnnyK. I am on a first name basis with many of my professors, one of whom the other day complained to me that I haven't stopped by her office in a while.</p>

<p>What you have to realize is that all of these professors read each other's work, and a great many of them know each other personally, either because they have worked together professionally for so long, they were in graduate school together, etc. Academia is very incestuous.</p>

<p>Academic reputations at major research universities are not gagued by whether or not undergrads feel all warm and fuzzy there (although it may be true, as it is for many people, and as many professors care deeply for their undergrad students). Reputations for departments and programs and professors are built on research and the professional training of graduate students.</p>

<p>The way that Princeton touts itself as a mainly undergrad-focused institution probably came after someone realized, "Oh, hey! We have more undergrads than grad students!" Schools like Princeton and Penn have built their academic reputations not on people who go off to work in i-banking, but on the quality of their graduate students. The idea that Princeton has more undergrads than grad students and therefore the former interact more with professors is actually a dangerous one, because it implies that there is no one else for the professors to interact academically with. Princeton has amazing grad students, just as it has amazing undergrads.</p>

<p>But professors--at least in my experience in the humanities--are generally very nice in that they care about BOTH. Almost any school can give you this if you just go to office hours or take a genuine interest. Although I don't doubt that undergraduate students at Princeton interact very often with their professors, the myth that students at Princeton do it more than those at any other school (especially a top school) is a marketing tool--a brilliant one at that--that the admissions office uses and bases solely on the numbers.</p>

<p>Anyway, I like the graduate students I know.</p>

7

<p>Hey, I never said UPenn DIDN'T have these things, and if you would have read closely, it is evident that I am only talking on behalf of Princeton because that is what I know, since I am a student there. </p>

<p>I know many other schools have terrific undergraduate education for a fact, Stanford, Davidson, Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, Amherst etc. Please don't disregard me a propaganda tool of the Princeton admissions office, because that is disrespectful not only to me but also to prospective students. I am only saying what I know about Princeton because can tell you it is true.</p>

8

<p>Jadedgrl (I hope you don't really think of yourself as jaded!), congratulations on your acceptances to two fine schools. You would get a great education at either but there are certainly differences in the atmosphere. I think the supporters of Penn are being a bit aggressive here and on the Penn board in their opinions and characterizations of Princeton, so I'll add my two cents worth as well.</p>

<p>Princeton is a very diverse place. The Class of 2011 includes an admitted group 44% of which is minority. The similar figures for other leading schools this year are as follows:</p>

<p>44% --- Princeton (<a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/04/03/news/17914.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/04/03/news/17914.shtml&lt;/a> )
42% --- Penn (<a href="http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2007/04/02/News/Admission.Rate.Drops.To.Record.Low.15.9-2816943.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2007/04/02/News/Admission.Rate.Drops.To.Record.Low.15.9-2816943.shtml&lt;/a> )
42% --- Harvard ( <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=517933%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=517933&lt;/a> )
41% --- Yale ( <a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/20617%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/20617&lt;/a> )</p>

<p>In terms of African-American students, Princeton was lauded just a year ago by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education as the best in the Ivy League (and third best iamong leading national universities) for attracting Black students and faculty.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/02/08/news/14379.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/02/08/news/14379.shtml&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Less than a month ago, Princeton was recognized by "Hispanic Magazine" as the top college in the nation for Latinos.</p>

<p><a href="http://hol.hispaniconline.com/HispanicMag/2007_3/features-26Colleges.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://hol.hispaniconline.com/HispanicMag/2007_3/features-26Colleges.htm&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Now, none of this is to say that Penn is not also a great place for diversity and there is certainly is a difference between the suburban setting of Princeton and the urban setting of Penn. As some of the Penn posters have noted above, there are more things to do in Philadelphia than in the town of Princeton. Misleading, however, is the comment from one of them that the town of Princeton has a low minority population. I'm a bit confused about this poster's comments claiming that he is familiar with the place because the University is actually in Princeton Borough (i.e. the town of Princeton), which has a very good size minority community including an area that, historically, has been African-American since the 19th century. The Township (which that poster misidentified as being the home of Princeton University) IS less diverse, but then suburbia always is!</p>

<p>I'm afraid that the other posters' characterizations of Princeton (both on this board and the Penn board) are the expected negative comments from those who love their own schools and don't see merit in the others. The following from a poster on the Penn board is typical of what we Princeton grads hear:</p>

<p>"But the stereotypes of Princeton students (preppiness and elitism) are truer than most Princetonians will admit. Especially the preppiness."</p>

<p>I'm afraid that I'm becoming a bit tiresome here by repeating this mantra, but Princeton has a higher percentage of public school students than most of its peers. I can't find the statistics for Penn but as compared to Yale, a school which no one ever describes as 'preppy' here are the comparable figures:</p>

<p>Class of 2010 % of Students From Public Schools</p>

<p>61% Princeton
54.4% Yale</p>

<p>(<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S14/41/92C18/index.xml?section=newsreleases%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S14/41/92C18/index.xml?section=newsreleases&lt;/a&gt;)
(<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17694%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17694&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Another indication of the economic cross-section of students at Princeton and other top schools is a comparison of the percentage on financial aid. Here are some numbers that might surprise you.</p>

<p>Class of 2009 % of Students on Financial Aid (U.S. News & World Report)</p>

<p>55% Princeton
52% Harvard
45% Yale
44% Penn
43% Stanford</p>

<p>So, Princeton consists mostly of public school students and well over half of all students are on financial aid. It has been recognized by nationally-circulated ethnic magazines as one of the best schools in the nation for minorities. Does that sound so 'preppy' and 'elitist'?</p>

<p>Many of these stereotypes of Princeton stem from outsiders' views of the Princeton eating clubs. The problem is that their views of these institutions are almost always formed without any first hand experience of them. It's always "I've heard" or "I have a friend who" or "my brother [sister] goes there and told me". You get the idea. While I have criticisms of the eating clubs, they are VERY different from the way almost all of these other posters characterize them. There are exceptions. Ivy Club, for example, is too selective for my tastes but it is the only one that falls in that category and even Ivy is probably no more difficult to get into than many of the large number of sororities and fraternities that are so prominent in the center of the Penn campus.</p>

<p>The best review of the eating clubs (including a discussion of whether or not they are 'elitist') was done by reporters from the Yale Daily News, who reviewed Princeton's Eating Clubs, Yale's Secret Societies and Harvard's Final Clubs. Here are those articles. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212&lt;/a> = on Princeton's Eating Clubs
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230&lt;/a> = on Harvard's Final Clubs
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253&lt;/a> = on Yale's Secret Societies</p>

<p>Reading them, I think you'll see that even a Yalie found Princeton's Eating Clubs to be far more open and egalitarian than either the Secret Societies or the Final Clubs. Again, while I can't compare them to the Sororities and Fraternities at Penn, I suspect that all of the latter vote on membership whereas over half of Princeton's eating clubs are simple sign-in clubs. You place your name in the lottery (sometimes as a group with your friends) and you are assigned to a club by a computer program that attempts to match everyone with a first or second choice. It's very difficult to call the entire system exclusive or elitist when nearly three fourths of all juniors and seniors belong to these clubs! Furthermore, with the opening of Whitman College next fall, there will be four year residential college options for those who want them. There is even an option to belong to a four year residential college and belong to a club as well.</p>

<p>I hope I haven't been too tedious here, but the Penn supporters are a bit off the mark here and on the Penn board, first by mischaracterizing Princeton and second by misinterpreting Tokyo's remarks which were certainly not 'Penn bashing'. I'll leave it to you to decide whether the responses were 'Princeton bashing'.</p>

<p>Good luck in your choice! They're both great schools but don't believe the stereotypes about Princeton offered by partisans of other schools!</p>

9

<p>Wow, PtonGrad2000, thats a pretty definitive compilation you have there /pwn3d.</p>

10

<p>jadedgirl - I hope you attend the April Hosting weekend. The place has really changed from my days. When I walked in my 25th Reunion P-rade (yes we alumni are loyal:)), tears came to my eyes as we walked past the recent classes and the diversity of the current student population was just right there in front of us. It ain't the old white guys any more. My years we broke the girl barrier. Kids recently have broken the class and race barrior.</p>

11

<p>Tokyo, I don't think I ever called YOU a tool of the Princeton admissions office. I called the touting of the undergraduate focus that that, as one gets the sense from them that Princeton is the only place where it exists. I'm sorry if it came off that way. </p>

<p>You DID pretty clearly set up an opposition between "a very expansive, career-oriented, pre-professional education with the resources of large world-class professional schools (i.e. Wharton, Huntsman, etc.) or do you want a rigorous education focused almost entirely on undergraduates and their interests and needs, with smaller classes, myriads of opportunities for research and study abroad, and more face-time with top professors in their fields (Princeton)." This implies that you don't think the latter exists at Penn, mostly because you talk only about the professional schools and Wharton.</p>

<p>By the way, I love Princeton (although I am happy to say that their Comparative Literature Department poached one of our best English professors for this year, and then we were able to poach him right back :P).</p>

12

<p>I'd definitely pick Penn for you. Yeah, Princeton is great, but you value diversity and "chillness" and Princeton definitely doesn't (if anyone tries to argue with that...lol, just lol).</p>

13

<p>You are wrong about diversity at Princeton.</p>

<p>Jadedgrl, Drosselmeir is an African American poster with a D at Princeton. You could try PMing him. I think I haven't spelled his name right though...</p>

14

<p><a href="if%20anyone%20tries%20to%20argue%20with%20that...lol,%20just%20lol">quote</a>

[/quote]

What? Unless you are a Princeton student, you can't make a real judgment on how diverse and "chill" Princeton is. As a minority student with a more working class family background, I find Princeton to be very diverse and "chill." Because I am not a Penn student, I can't make a comparison (and therefore won't). I don't think you should either.</p>

15

<p>I second that Asquith, especially as a Black Princetonian.</p>

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<p>And Quake, I never "implied" anything. I'm just saying one is known for this and one is known for the other. Many students care more about expansive pre-professional options and top faculty in that regard, something in which Princeton is quite weak compared to Penn. I'd say that with my own observations on the forum, pre-professional education is very much the education of choice these days. In this Penn has a serious advantage.</p>

17

<p>As for you MallomarCookie, I think PtonGrad2000's post has effectively countered your argument before you even made one.</p>

18

<p>Okay cool.</p>

19

<p>Princeton's def chill...at least more so than H or Y. A lot of the students I met there seemed super-intelligent but also pretty laid back...I personally think that's pretty awesome :-)</p>

20

<p>Clearly we need a 3D-colored pie-chart to quantify and effectively compare degrees of "chill"</p>

<p>Preliminary calculations show that Penn is approximately 14.8% more chill than Princeton.</p>