UPenn vs. Hopkins vs. Pomona vs. Vanderbilt

College Search & Selection
21

<p>I'd go with Pamona.
I live in Philly, and UPenn is not so wonderful.
I'm actually trying to choose right now between going to UVA and UPenn, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to UVA, even though UPenn is an ivy and has a bit more prestige. The attention to undergrad at UPenn is disconcerting and a lot of the professors don't even like teaching anyone but MBA students.</p>

22

<p>The WSJ ranked "Top</a> Feeder Schools" for acceptance into the elite Law/Med/MBA schools in 2003:</p>

<h1>13 Pomona</h1>

<h1>16 Penn</h1>

<h1>23 Hopkins</h1>

<p>(Vanderbilt not ranked in top 50)</p>

23

<p>SarahsDad, I like Pomona too but I have to point out that this ranking was only for one year, so its usefulness is somewhat questionable.</p>

24

<p>The Vandy grads may not be aiming for the "elite" to the same extent as some of the others. They know better. :)</p>

25

<p>I too think you should go to Pomona...</p>

26

<p>I've commented before on the WSJ Feeder piece, but here goes again. Vanderbilt consists of several undergraduate schools, including a school of education (Peabody), a music school (Blair) and an engineering school (acronym VUSE)--in addition to Arts & Science. While the graduates of some of the non-A&S schools are headed for medicine, as is the intention of the OP, most are not. So, perhaps a better picture would be obtained by finding out what percentage of students applying to medical school from A and S are successful. (I can't imagine at all why the OP would care that Wharton sends more students to prestigious MBA programs than a university without a business school.)</p>

<p>UCLA: Surely you realize that several of the school you listed as clearly superior on the basis of their ivy status are not, in fact, Ivy League schools. </p>

<p>As far as the safety issue goes, if everything else about Penn and Vanderbilt were equal, Vanderbilt would win the contest between these two by a mile because of the vast difference in the nature of the area surrounding the campus. It is still urban and one shouldn't forget that, but it is far less dangerous.</p>

27

<p>To the OP: It should be obvious by now that you'll get many different opinions on this, and that those opinions depend in large part on each individual's personal preferences, experiences, biases and, more often than not, rank HEARSAY from an extremely limited number of sources (NONE of those giving opinions have themselves attended all of these schools, and I dare say that the vast majority have not attended ANY of them). Not that you should necessarily ignore this advice or not be appreciative of the time people take to post it. But like all prospective students, you really need to visit these schools, see them for yourself, get the best feel you can for what they have to offer and what their undergraduate experience and students are like, ask the questions of each that are important to you and, most importantly, make your own decision based on FACTS and your own impressions, and not the hearsay-based impressions of others.</p>

<p>That being said, the only one of these schools with which I am intimately familiar, and upon which I am therefore qualified to comment, is Penn.</p>

<p>First, although Penn obviously does have a strong preprofessional component (after all, it does have Wharton, a Nursing school, and an engineering school), the vast majority of Penn undergrads (about 6500 students) are in the College of Arts and Sciences. Many of the liberal arts departments in the College are ranked among the top 10 in the country, and many others are ranked in the top 20. In fact, in the last National Research Council (NRC) ranking of Ph.D. programs, the most respected ranking of its kind, Penn was one of the top 10 schools with the highest number of departments ranked in the top 10. Additionally, in the Top American Research Universities report issued by the Center for Measuring University Performance (based on 9 objective measures), Penn is ranked in the highest tier, tied with Columbia, Harvard, MIT, and Stanford:</p>

<p><a href="http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf&lt;/a> (see page 8)</p>

<p>Why do I bring all of this up? Because it clearly indicates that Penn is about much more than merely preparing students for entry into professions, and is in fact one of the leading universities on the forefront of discovering, creating, and disseminating knowledge for knowledge's sake. Sure, there are many undergrads at Penn focused on ultimately entering professions (including business, law, medicine, engineering, etc.), but does anyone believe for a second that there aren't many similar undergrads at virtually all other top schools (including those being considered by the OP)? Furthermore, of Penn's 10,000 undergrads--including, of course, the 6500 in the College of Arts and Sciences--there are several thousand who are NOT headed directly into a profession or a professional school. Those thousands of Penn undergrads are attracted to Penn because of the top-flight reputations of its liberal arts departments, and because of the phenomenal research and knowledge-creation that goes on there. And in absolute numbers, Penn has as many or more undergrads headed for Ph.D.s as do the other schools being considered by the OP. So again, while Penn--like any top school--has a large contingent of undergrads focused on their future careers in medicine, law, business, etc., it also has a large number of undergrads focused on the incredible variety, breadth, and depth of traditional and interdisciplinary academic fields in which they can learn from leading scholars and participate in original research. And if an student enrolls in the right classes and looks in the right places, he or she can easily find these other undergrads.</p>

<p>Second, regarding the issue of crime and urban schools like Penn (including Hopkins, Columbia, Yale, Harvard, U. of Chicago, etc.): Is Penn in a big city with the attendant big city crime problems? Yes. Is there a relatively high-crime neighborhood a few blocks from Penn’s campus? Yes. Do the vast majority of Penn students go to high-crime neighborhoods or become the victims of violent crimes? Absolutely not. While Penn students--like students on any urban campus--need to use common sense about where and when they should go off-campus, the odds of any of Penn’s 20,000 undergrad, grad, and professional students becoming the victim of a violent crime are not significantly greater than they are at any other urban campus, or indeed any other campus in general, as statistics reveal. Further, Penn’s undergrad and grad schools have many, many more applicants than they do spaces, Penn’s yield rate on undergraduate acceptances is among the 6 highest in the country (only Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford have higher yields), and Penn’s undergraduate graduation rate is also among the highest in the country (meaning that it has one of the lowest percentages of undergraduates transferring out). Obviously, Penn would not be attracting AND RETAINING these extraordinarily high percentages of students if they felt themselves to be at excessive risk of violent crime compared to other schools they easily could attend. Unfortunately, as we learned last year at Virginia Tech (and previously at schools like Penn State), horrific violence can occur on any campus, including the most bucolic. As the crime statistics--and the numbers of students who eagerly come to and remain at Penn--clearly indicate, the risk that any individual student will become the victim of violent crime on or in the immediate vicinity of the campus of Penn or any other top urban school, is not significantly greater than anywhere else.</p>

<p>So how ‘bout we give the “Penn is preprofessional” and “Penn is unsafe” bogeymen a rest, and instead encourage the OP to explore the true nature of Penn and the other schools he’s considering based on facts and his own direct observations and impressions, so that he can make a truly informed decision on which one is the best fit for him.</p>

<p>Sorry about the rant, but these kinds of hyperbolic generalizations about Penn (or any school, for that matter) have been bugging me for a while. Thanks for your indulgence.</p>

28

<p>45 Percenter- As you know, I am a Penn-parent, and these things are not just generalizations, they are part of the character of Penn. All the strengths you listed are very valid, too, and the breadth of programs and quality of faculty is incredible. While it is true that the majority of students will not be victims of violent crimes, the fact is that Philadelphia has a huge crime problem and Penn is right in the middle of it. The recent subway issues downtown occurred where Penn students frequently go to interview or work in center city- or to go in town for shopping or restaurants. While the majority of students are in SAS, the Wharton intrigue can permeate until you get past it. I am able to contrast my son's Penn experience with that of my other child (Rice) and many others, and there ARE differences. Not reasons to rule out Penn- just know what to consider.</p>

29

<p>MOWC, it's not just that the MAJORITY of Penn students will never be victims of violent crimes while at Penn. It's that statistically, virtually NONE of them will ever be. For example, even if 20 of the 20,000 Penn students were the victims of a violent crime at Penn in a single year (and I'm confident that the actual annual average is SIGNIFICANTLY less than that), that would mean .1 percent (that's ONE TENTH of a percent). Quite frankly, I would be surprised if an average of even 5 Penn students--or .025% (that's TWENTY-FIVE THOUSANDTHS of a percent) were victims of violent crime at Penn every year. For example, the Daily Pennsylvanian reported last week that there were ZERO violent crimes of any kind reported within the Penn Police patrol zone (which also includes several blocks that surround, but are not part of, the Penn campus) during the entire month of March. And as you may be aware if you read the DP on a regular basis, even when violent crime does occur within the Penn Police patrol zone, the victim is RARELY a Penn student.</p>

<p>So statements like your comment that "Philadelphia has a huge crime problem and Penn is right in the middle of it," or like midmo's implication that Vanderbilt "is far less dangerous" than Penn (albeit in the context of the surrounding neighborhoods), are misleading and inflammatory, conveying the impression that Penn students are in the middle of some sort of war zone or no-man's land and at significant risk of being victimized by violent crime while on campus or in any part of Philadelphia where they normally go. This is simply not the case, as the statistics I cited above clearly indicate. Yet we constantly see comments thrown about on CC about how Penn is less safe than some other school, that prospective students should think twice before going to Penn because of the crime problem, etc., etc., ad nauseam.</p>

<p>And if I'm wrong about the numbers, and an average of more than twenty-five thousandths (25/1000) of one percent of Penn students are the victims of violent crime there every year--let alone more than one-tenth (1/10) of one percent--I hope that someone will please do us all a favor and post those facts here. Otherwise, let's cease and desist the statistically irrational fearmongering and let students make decisions based on REAL factors, and not on some perceived danger that for more than 99.9% of Penn students simply isn't a reality (just as it isn't for 99.9% of the students at Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Hopkins, U. of Chicago, etc., let alone VA Tech, Penn State, etc., where students are also occasionally the victims of violent crime).</p>

<p>Furthermore, regarding the 2 recent subway station attacks in Center City, these are EXTREMELY rare, as evidenced by the continuous front-page coverage they received for several days, and the almost IMMEDIATE apprehension of perpetrators in both cases. Indeed, they were so newsworthy precisely because that kind of thing rarely happens in Center City. Again, to put this in a fact-based statistical perspective, an average of 314,000 people use the Philly transit system (SEPTA) every day. Against that backdrop of 314,000 daily riders, the following Philly transit system statistics for all of 2007 are significant:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Aggravated assault dropped, with seven assaults reported in 2004 compared with four last year.</p>

<p>Homicides are rare. Statistics show no more than two in any given year - and in most years there are none.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=11FDD1EBB66961E0&p_docnum=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=11FDD1EBB66961E0&p_docnum=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Subway crime and attacks--and violent crime in general, for that matter--happen everywhere, not just in Philly. And to assert that last week's two unfortunate--but exceedingly rare--subway attacks in Center City have some bearing on the general safety of Penn students is completely unwarranted. On a real statistical basis, these two isolated events indicate no greater general danger for Penn students than does the ever-present violent crime in Cambridge/Boston for Harvard students, in Harlem/Manhattan for Columbia students, in New Haven for Yale students, in Chicago for U. of Chicago students, in Baltimore for Hopkins students, in L.A. for UCLA/USC students, in Nashville for Vanderbilt students, etc. So PLEASE, lets not assert that it’s otherwise.</p>

30

<p>The area around Nashville and the area around Penn are as different as night and day.
Even the Penn administration doesn't deny that Penn and Philadelphia have a crime problem. They have addressed it and continue to do so.<br>
Please, don't pretend this is an area you want to wander around in after dark (off-campus). It just isn't. And the statistics on VIOLENT crimes don't reflect all the thefts of personal property in and around campus. No-not many Penn students will be murdered. They better triple lock their doors, though.</p>

31

<p>45 percenter,
I intended to let this go as we’ve debated this before, but your latest post prompts me to post again about U Penn’s neighborhood. </p>

<p>Your implied claims of equivalent safety in U Penn’s neighborhood of West Philadelphia with other schools may be accurate in comparison to Yale/New Haven, Columbia/Harlem, Johns Hopkins/Baltimore or even USC/LA. But they are far from universally applicable to the universe of top colleges (including some mentioned in this thread). </p>

<p>There are large, visible differences in the neighborhoods among many top schools, including some of the ones that you imply are no more dangerous than West Philly. I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone who would claim that U Penn’s neighborhood is at all like what you’d find at other top urban colleges like Stanford/Palo Alto, Wash U/St. Louis, Rice/Houston, Emory/Atlanta, Vanderbilt/Nashville, UC Berkeley/Berkeley, Georgetown/Georgetown section of DC, UCLA/Westwood section of LA. </p>

<p>The reality is that West Philadelphia can be a dangerous place and is far from a safe place to go for a walk or a jog, even in the middle of the day. Undoubtedly students have learned where not to go outside of the campus’s boundaries and let’s hope that the numbers for crime incidents involving U Penn students never becomes a major problem. But U Penn’s neighborhood is a problem area for the city of Philadelphia. I googled the topic and I can cite plenty of examples if you want. I’m not seeking to trash Philadelphia or U Penn, but I think you are doing readers a disservice by pretending that there is some level of safety/quality of neighborhood equivalence here with all of the top schools. Anyone with eyes and a brain who has been to these campuses can see that this is not the case.</p>

32

<p>
[quote]

I'm actually trying to choose right now between going to UVA and UPenn, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to UVA, even though UPenn is an ivy and has a bit more prestige. The attention to undergrad at UPenn is disconcerting and a lot of the professors don't even like teaching anyone but MBA students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, my biology and art history teachers never stop talking about how much they love teaching MBA students!! Oh, wait....</p>

<p>As someone who has been here for 5 years (thanks, mono!) I can confidently speak on this more than you can.</p>

<p>I will agree with MomofWildChild (for once! ;)) that you will not have an intellectual experience at Penn unless you look for it. It's not going to be handed to you. That being said, once you look for it, you will find it in spades. Not merely in classes, but in wonderful student groups like the **Philomathean Society<a href="the%20oldest%20continually-operating%20student%20group%20in%20America">/b</a>.</p>

33

<p>I think Penn will offer you everything you are looking for, great reputation, great premed, great liberal arts. Pomona is just as prestigious if you were looking for a small LAC, but I don't get that impression.</p>

34

<p>I disagree with post #15. Post #16 and post #31 are offering much better advice in my opinion. I am familiar with Philly and assure you that post #31 is correct based on my experiences which span several decades. In rereading post #15, I am curious as to the basis for several of the claims made. I don't want to be impolite, but several assertions & one assumption is not well reasoned in my opinion.</p>

35

<p>OP -</p>

<p>I am familiar with Penn as my brother in law went to Wharton and played two sports there. I went to Stanford. My wife to Cornell. My next door neighbor to Harvard. Long discussions with each about their college experiences.</p>

<p>I know the knee-jerk answer here is that Penn is Ivy League, and Pomona isn't. Pomona is part of a formal, co-located consortium of five highly regarded colleges with 6000 student. This means that as a student at Pomona, you can walk 5-7 minutes across beautifully landscaped lawns to take classes at Harvey Mudd (science, engineering, higher student SAT midpoint than MIT), at Claremont (Top 20 in polisci and econ), and Scripps is all women -- you did mention dating prospects, did you not? did I mention Pomona kids tested higher than Penn's? The "Penn is Ivy" posters must have overlooked that. These collective schools have 6000 students... hardly the small LAC people seem to think. It is just a little smaller than Harvard's undergrad population but larger than Dartmouth or Princeton. You will share many of the same library facilities with the other schools, so there really is a sense of five colleges that belong and live together.</p>

<p>You mentioned track. Track at Penn will be much more time consuming that track at Pomona. To me the indentured servitude that is most of college athletics (30 hours per week in most sports -- though in fairness not at Penn which is non-scholarship) is out of balance. I suspect it would be for you as well.</p>

<p>My strong recommendation to you is that you blow off at least two days from school soon and visit the Pomona/Claremont/Mudd/Pitzer/Scripps campus. My opinion is that if the five Claremont schools were ever to be evaluated as a collective campus rather the five individual, co-located schools, they would be mentioned routinely with the CHYMPS schools, which incidentally does NOT include Penn.</p>

36

<p>


</p>

<p>hawkette, I have never--I repeat, NEVER--stated or implied that West Philadelphia doesn't have a crime problem, or that West Philadelphia in general is safer than neighborhoods in which other schools are generally located. Reread my posts in this or any other thread, and you’ll easily see that. But West Philadelphia covers several square miles, and the relative safety of West Philadelphia is not what's at issue here. What's at issue here is the relative safety of Penn and its 20,000 undergrad and grad students.</p>

<p>Penn's campus is 280 acres. The surrounding neighborhood that directly supports Penn's campus-- in which many Penn students live, shop, dine, seek culture and entertainment, and spend much of their time--consists of only a few blocks in any given direction in West Philly, plus bustling Center City immediately to the east. It is the campus itself, and the surrounding areas in which Penn students typically spend time, that are relevant here. The general West Philly crime rate 10, 15, or 20 blocks west of campus has no bearing on the relative safety of the Penn campus and its students. Penn students don't typically go to or even see those areas, there is no need for them to go to those areas, and from my own personal experience as a Penn undergrad and alumnus and Philadelphia resident, they have not gone to those areas for at least the past 35 years.</p>

<p>What's relevant to prospective students is how safe they will be and feel on the Penn campus, and in the areas of the city where Penn students typically go (i.e., the blocks immediately around campus, and Center City directly to the east). As I pointed out earlier, the statistics speak for themselves. 20,000 students attend Penn, and more than 99.9% of those students are never victimized by violent crime while at Penn. Yes, hawkette, by that measure, Penn is as safe as any other urban school in the country. That’s not exaggeration. That’s not pretending. That’s cold, hard fact. And it’s corroborated by the additional fact that both Penn’s admissions yield and its graduation rate are among the highest in the country. In other words, a high percentage of accepted students choose to come to Penn, and a high percentage of matriculated students choose to stay until they graduate. If Penn itself were excessively dangerous, don’t you think fewer students would choose to come, and more students would choose to transfer out? </p>

<p>So, once again, let’s not impute to Penn’s campus or the lives of Penn students the crime problems that may lie several blocks to the west where Penn students never go. To do that would be misleading and, to quote you, “doing readers a disservice.”</p>

37

<p>45 Percenter, we have a name for this special part of West Philly:</p>

<p>University</a> City District, Philadelphia, PA</p>

<p>University City is part of West Philadelphia, yes, but it is also an area over which Penn has established de-facto sovereignty.</p>

38

<p>Excellent point, ilovebagels! And one that I should have remembered to mention! :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
University City District builds effective partnerships to maintain a clean and safe environment and to promote, plan and advocate for University City's diverse, urban community.</p>

<p>University City District (UCD) was established in 1997 to improve the quality of life of this 2.2 square mile area of West Philadelphia. An independent, not-for-profit organization, UCD builds effective partnerships to maintain a clean and safe environment and to promote, plan, and advocate for University City's diverse, urban community.</p>

<p>Its full-time administrative staff manages programs and services that enhance public space, increase public safety, assist homeowners and commercial and rental property owners, and promote University City attractions. UCD is managed by a 25-member Board of Directors representing University City's prominent institutions in education, health care, and scientific and medical research as well as representatives of University City's business and residential communities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>University</a> City District: About UCD</p>

<p>The enormous efforts and investments of Penn and other institutions in the area (Drexel, Children's Hospital, University of the Sciences, etc.)--individually, and jointly through the University City District--have brought tremendous improvements to the entire area, resulting in an explosion of development of upscale restaurants and stores, higher-end apartments and condos, offices, and other amenities. The picture often painted on CC of the Penn campus as an isolated island amid a sea of urban blight--i.e., set one foot off campus and you're immediately in a dangerous, decaying, inner city war zone--is, quite frankly, absurd.</p>

<p>Two years ago, an extensive article in the Washington Post described the results of Penn's phenomenal--and nationally prominent--efforts to improve its surrounding neighborhood:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Today, Penn is the among the hottest schools in the country -- sitting smack in the middle of a clean and vital retail neighborhood where crime has been reduced by 49 percent in the past decade, and where students swarm the streets shopping at upscale stores. Penn has jumped in the U.S. News & World Report college rankings to No. 4 and attracts significantly more applicants -- successes that school administrators attribute in large part to Penn's "West Philadelphia Initiative."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Urban</a> Colleges Learn to Be Good Neighbors</p>

<p>The article goes on to point out that "officials from more than 100 schools have made pilgrimages to study how" Penn has tranformed its surrounding neighborhood, further noting that "[a]s a case study, Penn's urban renewal effort is probably the most comprehensive -- targeting every service and institution that makes a community vibrant."</p>

39

<p>The improvement is ongoing. This semester the University City District has been expanding the reach of its pedestrian-level street lamps. The reach has been increased on Walnut and Spruce.</p>

<p>They've also upgraded the traffic light infrastructure to new lights and walk/don't walk signs with a countdown timer.</p>

<p>Once the Radian is done, there will be another great retail strip along the street.</p>

<p>A lot of times I see people with strollers walking around University City. They didn't stroll there all the way from Rittenhouse; families are moving into University City. Look for another big boost in this when the Radian and another new College House are built. Houses formerly rented by students will be rented (or purchased outright) by families.</p>

<p>I <3 gentrification</p>