Upper middle class and in need of finaid?

Paying for College
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<p>"Because of my experiences, having college funds is actually more important to me than a retirement fund. "</p>

<p>So . . . you want to be a burden to your children later in life, when they are putting their own children through college?</p>

<p>Both are important. Financial planning is essential for these major fiscal events.</p>

<p>I agree with herecomesthesun that financial aid is designed for the truly needy; however, as the cost to attend college has soared (even at the state level), the bar gets raised. The problem has become that the poor desperately need - and deserve - aid, but now so do people who earn what otherwise seems like great salaries. </p>

<p>Several people here have talked about people making, say, $100,000 and (the implication is) squandering it on a nice house and yearly vacations. Now . . . it is not realistic to expect someone making that kind of money to live in a small inner city apartment and to never go anywhere. While it's sort of a "lifestyle choice", it's also natural to enjoy the good fortune one has. But what if one has treated oneself occasionally but also been fiscally forward-thinking, saving for college and retirement? Say this person has saved $100,000 for his kids' college (which, we would all agree, is a lot of money). We'll give this hypothetical person two kids, one still in high school. That's $50,000 for each kid. That would pay only a little over one year at a private college. With this much saved, and a salary of $100,000, the person would not be eligible for financial aid. He cannot pay for a full education. That's mind-boggling that someone in that seemingly excellent financial health cannot pay for college, nor can he get help to do it. That's the upper middle class crunch that people are talking about.</p>

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<p>Momwaitingfornew, I could not have said it better!</p>

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<p>Thank you for saying this. Need based financial aid is for the truly needy. Spending choices that amass debt, or living in an expensive home in an expensive part of the country are not choices the truly needy can make. These folks have the basics for survival in most cases, and little other money to spare. I'm not thrilled about tapping into my home equity...but I will. Re: retirement...you can always pay back loans...even with your retirement income. BUT you cannot increase your retirement account holdings later. Advice would be to continue retirement savings as there is no return on that if you reduce it.</p>

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<p>A young lady we know confided to my son that her parents have $300,000 put away for her for college. Judging by their occupations, both the mother and father have high paying jobs. Notwithstanding, I do admire the fact that they must have been very diligent in saving. But Momwaitingfornew's phrase "never go anywhere" made me laugh. The young lady claims that she has never gone anywhere outside of our town except to visit cousins in CT. When she began to drive, she did not have a concept of where neighboring towns were in relation to ours. I'm not justifying numerous or plentiful vacations (and we haven't taken many ourselves), but still!!!</p>

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<p>"So the point I'm trying to make:
1. IMHO, with an income nearly double ours, surely there is money to pay for college...for if we can do it, I'm sure your family can as well. We choose to pay the difference between finaid and COA out-of-pocket so that we don't go into retirement with loans.
2. You don't need the most stellar credentials to get merit money...you just need to pick your college list wisely...if you're at the higher end of a college's profile, you often make yourself eligible for automatic merit money. If a student is taken by a name-brand school, he or she will often pay through the nose for it. IMHO, there are many, many terrific colleges out there that offer top-notch educational experiences and opportunities. If your family truly cannot afford an expensive college, then either pull up your grades to qualify for merit money, readjust your selection list to place yourself higher up in the class, or go to a state or cc and transfer."-Sage44</p>

<p>Sage44:</p>

<p>I attended a "Top 30 Private High School" in St. Louis. The tuition was just under $20,000 a year. I also have a brother a year older than me, and we both attended the same high school. My mom is widowed, but luckily she was able to find a high paying job after my father's death. Now, when you factor in our location, St. Louis County, with house prices sky rocketing into the multi-million dollar rage, a private education is not exactly affordable.</p>

<p>Why didn't I just go to a public school? Public schools in St. Louis County are ranked highly, but having attended a public school until 6th grade, I can assure you that they are at best mediocre. I was part of my school district's "Talented and Gifted" Program (IQ must be above 140 to be even considered), where I went to a separate school once a week. And, after HS graduation, I would have most likely attended Mizzou-mediocre at best.</p>

<p>If my family's income is so high, why didn't I go to a private elementary school? My mom was looking at private elementary schools, but thought 10k+ was too much. But, realistically, we were able to afford private school, and now college, because my brother and I went to public school for so long.</p>

<p>My mom was raised in rural Illinois, graduated at the top of her public high school class, and recieved her BA in Accountancy from Univ. of Illinois. Luckily, she lived in a state with with an amazing public university.</p>

<p>My brother now attends a Top 10 national university ($40,000+) and I am at a top out of state public school ($30,000+). We both are on minimal scholarships ($2k max), but we had top SAT/ACT scores, GPA's, EC's, and had fullrides to Honors Programs at lesser schools. Financing a top education on a 120k income, especially before taxes, is nearly impossible.</p>

<p>Now...What does this have to do with For Shaganov? She was in my HS class of 100 and is one of my best friends. The average ACT score of our class was a 29. And an overwhelming majority of my classmates were accepted to or attended the ivies and other top national universities. I personally know her situation, and 120k income is not nearly enough to afford a private elementary, private HS, and TOP private college education-especially for a family with more than 1 child.</p>

<p>The education and opportunities you recieve at a TOP university is incomparable.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
That would pay only a little over one year at a private college. With this much saved, and a salary of $100,000, the person would not be eligible for financial aid. He cannot pay for a full education. That's mind-boggling that someone in that seemingly excellent financial health cannot pay for college, nor can he get help to do it. That's the upper middle class crunch that people are talking about.

[/quote]
But that family does have "help" - not through eligibility for aid based on need, but through the PLUS loan system. They have money put away to pay for half; they still have a $100K annual income -- and they can borrow the remainder - they have an income easily enough to cover the payments. Not only that, once the two kids are out of college, with the $100K income they will probably be able to afford to accellerate payments on the loan and quickly pay it off.</p>

<p>As I have said before - the way that we median-income people do it is that we BORROW. We never had income that was enough to save much from; and we don't have income that is enough to pay out from. There is no way in the world that I can pay out $16-$10K on a $50K annual income -- but that is pretty much how the financial aid system works out. So the system is clearly built around the assumption that I will borrow. </p>

<p>People with more income and resources than I have ought to be able to borrow more.</p>

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<p>Families who are in the vicious cycle of borrowing and repaying generation after generation are destined to remain middle class or even lose ground, regardless of educational level. To me, loans are not financial aid. That kind of financial aid pretty much says to me, "You are on your own...pay for it yourself!"</p>

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<p>Yeah... I understand that financial aid is for the truly needy and I feel guilty about wanting it when there are so many more people who actually need it. </p>

<p>My parents have pretty much paid for instate colleges, they went through some plan where any in state college tuition is paid for but for some reason my dad didn't save for the out of state part at all... so I guess I should save out of state dreams for grad school.</p>

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<p>Cimmoresque, you live in a state with one of the top public universities in the country.... so why should your father expect to pay more for college? </p>

<p>Both my kids were accepted to private colleges far from home and I am grateful that they received enough financial aid to make attendance possible; I certainly understand the urge they have to spread their wings and attend college far from home. At the same time, I felt that my obligation as a parent was met by my willingness to finance their education at an in-state public-- I certainly assumed as I raised my kids in California that one of the benefits I secured for them via the taxes I paid over the years was the public university system. If I "dreamed" of anything it was of seeing both my kids at Berkeley. If they didn't share the dream -- fine -- but I made it clear to them that they I could only promise the $$ needed for the public education. </p>

<p>I just don't see why kids expect their parents to pay for designer educations. I guess my kids are lucky that I don't make very much money -- hence, they qualify for more in financial aid. On the other hand, my son dropped out of his elite private college and plans to complete his education at a state university, and now that he is paying his own way I think he has started to appreciate the value of what our state has to offer. His tuition next year will be about $3000.</p>

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<p>I think the reason kids want designer is because they worked hard and feel deserving, and they do not understand the financial burden to the family. The cost is not equal to all families. I also think that if one comes from a hs with more affluent families, the student expects to attend similar schools to the bulk of their hs peers.</p>

<p>In my town, I have seen two homes for sale, b/c child #2 (in each family) is going to college. They have lived in this community for over 14 years. In both cases I know the families, and child #1 in both cases went to expensive private colleges that were a financial stretch. I can tell you that one family kept trying to talk child #2 out of going to a 4 year college. They encouraged vocational training (either culinary arts, or auto mechanic training). The student decided to go to a 4 year, and applied late, so there was no financial aid available. He really thought that he was going to go for vocational training. I believe peer pressure in his hs caused him to change his mind. The financial strain for both families is so enormous, that they are moving out of the area.</p>

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<p>I honestly don't think my dad owes me anything but an instate education, but it seems ridiculous to me to move to such an expensive county (it's harder to get into UVA from Fairfax County, to add to it) and end up going to a state school that I don't even like. Haha, my parents would probably call it Americanization; a good college is a good college, no matter how much you hate the atmosphere. </p>

<p>Wow, $3000/year? Damn, that's good. UVA is ~$17k/year at the moment.</p>

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<p>calmom, the financial aid system is not built around the assumption that there is enough money it to be able to fund everyone's education. thank those tax cuts and that war on terra. and you can't take out a loan if you are about to mortgage your house. and not everyone is shallow enough to have a private college fit them best and perhaps not be able to flourish at a public school just because a private one is "desiger." I've been to a top 30 private day high school and a top 30 public college and there is absolutely, unequivocally no comparison between a private and public school. private wins. obviously there are exceptions, but i'm transferring to georgetown or harvard next year, and there is no state good state school in the country that is in the real world, urban enviornment that i want with a formal atmosphere, a grown up atmosphere and excellent international relations department. i briefy considered berkley because of the cost, but it is just flat out not for me, although more so than the other top public schools like UNC, UVA, UM-AA and UCLA.
i'm not going to harvard or georgetown because i want to wear the t-shirt and feel smug or because i feel like i deserve it, it's because they are the only schools i've felt at home at when i visited, that i personally love. we're working it out with financial aid and hopefully it will work out, but my family CANONT afford to take out loans right now for extenuating circumstances (which lots of people have) and we do make over 120 K a year. for one thing, my mother is a scientist and keeping her job is dependant on government funding from grants, and guess how this administration/congress feels about funding science? she needs to get her grant this year or she's out of luck and a job. FAFSA doesn't care. we can't take out a loan. so stop assuming everyone just doesn't WANT to borrow or is being selfish and just wants to go to a private school because it's "designer" because that's just flat out not true.</p>

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<p>Actually, cimmoresque, in-state tuition for UVA is about $7200; the fees you quote probably include room & board. </p>

<p>For Shagonov -- it is not a matter of what you WANT, it is a matter of what you can AFFORD. That's life. If your situation is that you have too much income to qualify for much financial aid; but you don't have enough in savings and your debt load is too high to enable you to borrow.... then you will either have to find a private college that can give you a full ride merit scholarship or else go for the public education. I know that there is a qualitative difference, but you can't always get what you want. Education is like everything else in this world: you get what you can afford. I know why you prefer Harvard to Berkeley -- that isn't the issue. The issue is whether you can afford Harvard or not. No one owes you Harvard.</p>

<p>I strongly believe that the federal financial aid system should be geared to providing needy students with financing for a public education, simply because it comes from taxpayer money. I'm glad that the system gives the SAME support to public or private -- that is, that maximum Pell grant or Stafford loan is the same whether or not the student elects a private or public college. But obviously the grants & loans aren't enough to cover private tuitions. If the private schools want to fill in the gap with their own funds -- great. But they do have the right to set up whatever system they want for distributing their money. And I certainly can see why they are not going to give much to a family with $120K annual income.</p>

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<p>I'm painfully aware of the fact that it isn't about what I want/worked hard to/am smart enough to get into, but instead what I can afford. You said families with high incomes can just take out loans and my point is that's not true. Private schools of harvard/georgetown's caliber don't give merit based scholarships. </p>

<p>And I think your opinion of the public education system of this country is too high. Having been in top private schools my whole life, public schools are a step down and I'm NOT CHALLENGED. Going to college is not just about getting a degree, it's about being challenged, learning who you are in an enviornment that fits you and motivates you and challenges you. This is why public schools for me simply aren't an option. If I don't get in to Harvard or can't wrangle four thousand more dollars out of Georgetown, then I'll be going to either Barnard or Wellesley in the fall, but FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS of a 47K a year education is all that's keeping me between Georgetown and things are so tight in my family right now that we literally cannot pay the four thousand. in the end, what matters is that you can actually attend the school in the fall, and if georgetown gives someone who needs 45 thousand the full 45 thousand because they need more money total but doesn't give me the four thousand because my family makes a lot of money that person can go to georgetown and i can't-- georgetown "owes" them georgetown because their parents make less money.</p>

<p>And in posting on message boards, I'd sort of ask you, I guess, as someone who has just had the most hellacious year of her life who has worked herself to the bone to get to georgetown and harvard, not to use langauge like "No one owes you Harvard." Obviously no one owes me Harvard, but you have no idea what some people are going through, and at least personally, i feel like you're talking to me like I'm an elitist, entitled brat who needs to see the real world. I just repeat, like I have no idea what you might be going through, you have no idea what other people are going through or who they are as people, and statements like "no one owes you harvard" are condescending and misunderstand something crucially important to me personally, so please, just don't.</p>

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<p>Georgetown wouldn't give someone who needed $45,000 a grant for $45,000 - they would give that student loans and work study. With very few exceptions, the first $4000-$7000 in a financial aid package is always made up of self-help aid (loans, work study).</p>

<p>Here is an example of an award that Georgetown gave to a kid who qualifed for a Pell grant last year:</p>

<p>$3,900 - Pell Grant
$24,090 - Georgetown University Scholarship
$2,625 - Stafford Loan Subsidized
$3,000 - Federal Work Study
Total Financial Aid: $33,615</p>

<p>Total Family Contribution: $12,115</p>

<p>See Tlaktan's post, <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=45620&page=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=45620&page=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As you can see, the family was required to come up with $12K, and the package included $5625 of self-help aid. </p>

<p>The student immediately lined up a summer job that would pay him about $3000; and he managed to get scholarships to reduce the remaining amount down to about $7000. I believe he took a private loan for the rest - I don't know, but you can send him a PM and ask. </p>

<p>The point is... low income families are expected to borrow, and lower-middle-income families are expected to borrow. The entire financial aid system is built around the assumption that families will borrow. No one avoids this except at a small handful of very well-endowed, elite colleges like Princeton. </p>

<p>Do you have a summer job lined up? Or is the $4000 what you need in addition to summer earnings? </p>

<p>I have another question as well. It is May 6th. You said, If I don't get in to Harvard or can't wrangle four thousand more dollars out of Georgetown, then I'll be going to either Barnard or Wellesley in the fall, but FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS of a 47K a year education is all that's keeping me between Georgetown I assume you were waitlisted at Harvard, but how can you still be deciding between G-town, Barnard & Wellesley? Did you ask all three colleges to extend your time for making a deposit? </p>

<p>One other comment -- I am sorry that you feel that I am talking down to you, but I personally feel offended by the comment "Having been in top private schools my whole life, public schools are a step down and I'm NOT CHALLENGED. I went to public schools and got my education and law degree from public universities, as did most of my friends and relatives; and I sent my kids to public schools all the way through high school. I can assure you that we are highly intelligent people, and we all learned early on how to find our own challenges. In any case, there is no shortage of challenging courses at public universities. Most of the smartest students in this country end up at public universities -- its simply a matter of numbers and economics.</p>

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<p>"Most of the smartest students in this country end up at public universities -- its simply a matter of numbers and economics."</p>

<p>What you say, Calmom, may or may not be true. Do you have statistics by SAT score or GPA showing where the top students attend college? </p>

<p>Regardless, this thread is largely about personal disappointment. And in Shaganov's world your comment may not be true. At my son's HS, I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that none of the academically top students are attending state schools. NONE.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
and guess how this administration/congress feels about funding science?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My guess would have been wrong! The public dole for scientists is alive and well under this administration. Science funding over the last 6 years has greatly outpaced inflation...5-6% a year.</p>

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<p>I posted to another thread that to send one child to a Ivy will cost this late middle age couple as much as we have spent in our lifetimes on our house (a 4 bedroom in a nice suburb with good schools ;) ), on all of our cars ( 4 new and a handful used) and all of our vacations.</p>

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<p>"my family CANONT afford to take out loans right now for extenuating circumstances (which lots of people have) and we do make over 120 K a year."</p>

<p>Your parents make this much, and you got financial aid? I'm gonna cry.</p>

<p>As for the public school challenges, it all depends on where you live. My d. attended an excellent public school system until 10th grade, when we had to move. In our new area, the public schools simply are not as high quality. We felt that to keep up the same level of education/challenge (not to mention the extra support for moving from the only home she ever remembered), she would have to go to private school. We were fortunate that family members helped us out with this until we were back on our feet, but despite the financial pinch, I never regretted it. The education she got was phenomenal even compared to her former highly ranked public. Since my husband and I attended public schools, we never "got" the difference until we saw it first hand. And wow, there is a huge difference. </p>

<p>The same is true of the Ivy v. public school education. There is no comparison in quality, despite what many believe. After graduating from an Ivy, I took a few classes at a highly respected state school. No contest. Yes, some of the students were highly intelligent and, yes, the professor was a good instructor, BUT the classroom atmosphere was less ambitious and analytical. Discussion was superficial, and, as a result, students had fewer opportunities to learn from one another. It simply felt more like a public high school class with a few motivated students in the front row and the sulkers/slackers in the back. The professor taught to the middle of the class instead of to the top. (At Ivies, most professors teach to the top, which is a pretty intelligent top.) It was apparent to me that the ambitious students at the state college had to work harder than those at my Ivy to get a challenging education.</p>

<p>That said, however, it is not impossible to get a great education at a public university, even a middling one. It takes more work from the student, that's all. Professors at the state colleges and universities have PhDs just their counterparts at the more prestigious schools do. While some students may have "lower stats" in comparison, some excellent students with impressive credentials attend public universities. Some, too, are late bloomers - kids who didn't get their academic act together until senior year when it was too late to get into a top school. </p>

<p>Students who turn their noses up at their public universities should consider that out-of-staters might view their "13th grade" schools as highly desirable; it's sometimes a matter of perception.</p>

<p>All things being equal, I would recommend the Ivy/top LACs/top universities (and some of these ARE public institutions) every time because they are highly rated for a reason. They offer a top-notch, challenging education. However, all things usually are not equal. Unfortunately, money may decide a student's destination more than he would like. There is no shame in attending a public university. Since education is ALWAYS, no matter where, what you make of it, you have to work to ensure that you get a good one. It just takes more effort and careful planning at a state college.</p>

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<p>"I posted to another thread that to send one child to a Ivy will cost this late middle age couple as much as we have spent in our lifetimes on our house (a 4 bedroom in a nice suburb with good schools ), on all of our cars ( 4 new and a handful used) and all of our vacations."</p>

<p>While I'm crying over the student whose parents make over $120K getting financial aid, I add some more sobs to the idea that you can get all that in your area for that price. In my area, you cannot get a 4 bedroom house for anywhere near $200,000.</p>