UR vs. Cornell Physics

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Rochester
1

<p>Well, March 30th has passed and I only got into two schools I'm really considering, UR and Cornell. I know that Cornell is much larger will cost me more (got a 2k NMS and 15k scholarship from UR) but Cornell has a seemingly better physics department and is better known. Does anyone have an opinion on which school would be better to attend?</p>

<p>What I really yearn for is students who are at least as smart as me, something I mostly lacked in high school. Cornell has higher SAT averages and much more difficult admissions, I presume I'd find more people to make feel stupid there (a benefit). I'm kind of tired of wasting time with students asking dumb questions, would this be any problem at UR? Thanks, I appreciate any advice.</p>

<p>One last question, is there much outdoorsy activity at UR like there might be at a school like Dartmouth?</p>

2

<p>Outdoors stuff? Like day hikes? Alpine or Xcountry skiing? Road cycling? White water kayaking? Cow tipping? What exactly are you looking for?</p>

<p>D2 is western kid who summitted her first 14er at 3, did a semi-solo hike of the John Muir Trail last summer and is intermediate ranked sport climber. And if you asked her about outdoorsy stuff, she’d say no, not really. Rochester and its environs are sorely lacking in actual mountains.</p>

<p>But there is a outdoor club that does organize stuff like annual canoe trips through Algonquin in Ontario and week long hikes in the Adirondacks. And there is a road cycling club. And there is a very pleasant mtn bike trail that follows along the Erie Canal. You can canoe and kayak on the Genesee River. People say there is some decent alpine skiing within about an hour’s drive. XC skiing locally in winter is quite good.</p>

<p>Rochester is more of an urban/suburban locale and Dartmouth is out in the boonies. To get out in the countryside at UR, you have to drive farther than you will at Dartmouth.</p>

<p>Re: physics Do you have an area of special interest? If it’s optics and lasers, UR’s program is much better than Cornell’s. If it’s condensed matter, Cornell’s program is stronger than UR’s. If you want astro, neither school is particularly known for that.</p>

<p>There are smart people in both programs and I think you’ll be challenged at either school. Physics is a tough major and stupid people who ask dumb questions don’t make it past the first year, and usually not past the first semester.</p>

<p>(BTW, married to an academic research physicist who did electo-optics, and D1 got her BS physics specializing in high energy.)</p>

3

<p>“If you want astro, neither school is particularly known for that.”</p>

<p>??? home of the late Carl Sagan? Saul Teukolsky?? Yervant Terzian?? Did some tragedy befall the Cornell astronomy department, it used to be among the top astronomy departments in the country !!!</p>

<p><a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124705/[/url]”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124705/&lt;/a&gt;
here’s the prior one:
<a href=“http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/area27.html[/url]”>http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/area27.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

4

<p>Oops! My western prejudice is showing–when I think astro, I think Cal Tech (mostly because I know a couple of Kip Thorne’s students…)</p>

5

<p>Hi Physicshopeful, I think that I can give you relevant information. I am freshman at Rochester.</p>

<p>Some background info: I plan on graduating with a double degree: [BS</a> in physics & astronomy](<a href=“http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/page/bsastro]BS”>http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/page/bsastro), and [Honors</a> BA in math](<a href=“http://www.math.rochester.edu/undergraduate/degrees/BAhonors.html]Honors”>http://www.math.rochester.edu/undergraduate/degrees/BAhonors.html). I also plan to [minor</a> in computer science](<a href=“https://www.cs.rochester.edu/undergrad/#Minor]minor”>https://www.cs.rochester.edu/undergrad/#Minor). I am currently taking the honors sequence in both physics and math, and I have also taken an introductory programming course in computer science. [Brief</a> high school stats](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-rochester/867913-university-rochester-decisions-entering-class-2010-a-post9812814.html#post9812814]Brief”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-rochester/867913-university-rochester-decisions-entering-class-2010-a-post9812814.html#post9812814).</p>

<p>I have read your [previous</a> thread](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1095364-university-rochester-vs-ivies.html]previous”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1095364-university-rochester-vs-ivies.html), and we seem to share some things in common: Last year, I was deciding between Rochester, Princeton, and MIT; I was rejected from Caltech. I was offered a full-tuition merit scholarship (the Renaissance Scholarship) at Rochester, but nothing at Princeton or MIT. My parents were willing and able to support me financially at Princeton or MIT, and similar to your case, they said that they would give me the amount that they would save (~$160k) if I chose Rochester (however, this was not an important factor in my decision).</p>

<p>In your previous thread, you said that

I agree with this. Being challenged and learning a lot were important for me, and I think that Rochester meets this criteria.</p>

<p>However, I disagree with what you wrote here:

My disagreement here is rather subjective; I am not saying that you are wrong. I understand you as saying that - academically - you would prefer to be about average, rather than exceptionally good, relative to other students. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you. My preferences are opposite to yours. I prefer to be in an environment where I am… well, the top student. This may sound petty and shallow, but it’s true. I would be less happy I were to find myself somewhere where I am only average, or - even worse - below average. I discovered this about myself from my experiences at summer programs and competitions.</p>

<p>Are you sure that you want to be average? My general impression - from my experiences here at Rochester - is that many college students would have had more academic success if they had chose a lower ranked, less prestigious college, rather than selecting the highest ranked, most prestigious college that they got into. There is a statistical explanation for this, related to [regression</a> to the mean](<a href=“https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Regression_to_the_mean]regression”>Regression toward the mean - Wikipedia): Given a sample of comparably selective colleges, if you were rejected from most of them, and accepted to one, then it is more likely that the one college which accepted you, rather all the colleges that rejected you, has made an ‘error’ of some sort. By error, I don’t necessarily mean that they would have chosen differently had they known more about you - I just mean that they are more likely to have accidentally neglected some negative parts of your application.</p>

<p>It seems to be a popular strategy to apply to many highly selective schools, and matriculate in the highest ranked school to which you are accepted. The danger with this strategy - as I see it - is that it is likely that you will end up being academically at the bottom of the student pool. (Note: This argument does not work for those who were accepted by all the colleges that they applied to.) For many students, I think it might help to remember that by definition, one half of the student population is below the academic median at any college.</p>

<p>My point is: you may have overestimated your academic ability, which would mean that you may be misjudging your relative academic ability at Cornell (that is, you may be less academically competitive than you currently expect). I did not come to this conclusion because of anything that you said, rather, I came to this conclusion because it seems that high achieving high school students typically overestimate their academic ability, probably because there is no readily available standard for high achievers. As an example: Most students at Rochester were among the top students at their high school; yet by definition half of the students are below the median, and many - or at least some - are unhappy about that (especially premeds). If only they had an accurate judgment of their relative academic ability - then they would have been able to better judge whether they really want to be here.</p>

<p>I hope this isn’t putting you down. That is certainly not my intention, and I apologize if my writing has been unreasonably harsh (to anyone - after all, I am saying that many college students have made a bad choice). You have done very well in getting accepted by Cornell, and in getting into Rochester with a merit scholarship! :D</p>

<p>So, in conclusion, it may seem like I am arguing for you to go to Rochester. This is not the case. If you are certain that you want your peers to be academically brilliant - better than you - and if that is an overwhelming factor in your decision, then I think you should to Cornell. I am quite confident that students at Cornell are better academically than students at Rochester.</p>

<p>Let me know if this has been useful, and if you want to know more about my experiences as a physics undergraduate here - I had originally intended to write about that, but this post has gotten too long. Also, I have more opinion on whether it is good to be academically mediocre or exceptional at a college - again, let me know if that would be useful.</p>

<p>P.S., Your question about dumb questions: that is too subjective for me to answer; what you consider a dumb question, I might not, and vice versa. In any case, questions take up at most 5 minutes out of any lecture. I think what you mean to ask is whether your learning will be held back at Rochester if you smarter than everyone else. Is this interpretation correct?</p>

<p>WayOutWestMom,

That is awesome! I also know some; the only problem is they don’t know me. :)</p>

6

<p>One went to high school with D1, was in the same BS physics program with her so they had most of their classes together. (D1 got the Feynman award in 2008; he got in 2009.) And I’ve met his dad a time or two. He is one awesomely smart guy!</p>

7

<p>Physicshopeful, My D is a sophomore at UR majoring in physics and minoring in optics. Has had wonderful research opportunities. Don’t let the SAT ranges fool you; UR is a difficult school to get into even though their SAT range may be lower than ivy league schools. The salutatorian of D’s high school class was rejected at UR and accepted at Brown. D was waitlisted at Brown while 1 other student who took no AP math or science classes in 4 years of high school was accepted with a slightly higher SAT score. Does this make her a smarter student? I don’t put as much importance on SAT scores as I do on 4 years of high school grades and accomplishments, the difficulty of classes taken, class rank, outside interests, etc. I feel these are a much more accurate reflection of a student than a 1-time standardized test. D has had wonderful research opportunities at UR. I don’t feel she would have had these opportunities had she attended other high level universities. My D is not an outdoors person so I can’t help you with that. She didn’t apply to Cornell so I can’t make a comparison on each’s physics program. Good luck in your decision.</p>

8

<p>At the graduate level, Rochester’s very fine physics faculty is not, on average, as good as Cornell’s. Simple Truth. Ah, but Rochester’s very fine physics faculty [math faculty, chemistry faculty, etccc] is very fine, and undergraduates at Rochester are far more likely to be taught by, and engaged by, that very fine faculty than the students at Cornell [by their somewhat better faculty]. The very fine Rochester faculty is definitely superior to the grad students at Cornell that you would see for the bulk of your time at that estimable institution in Ithaca. And they have a much higher chance of playing a significant role in your intellectual development.
No, all else being roughly equal I would not choose Rochester over Cornell for, say, fundamental theoretical physics work at the graduate level. But, if I had had to choose between the two as an undergraduate, it would have been Rochester. The physics and mathematics would have been rigorous, and the learning would have been more as an apprentice than as mere student.</p>

9

<p>"…the grad students at Cornell that you would see for the bulk of your time at that estimable institution in Ithaca. "</p>

<p>When I was there, grad students served as TAs for labs in lower level courses mostly , lectures were all given by profs. Upper level courses were all profs, in very reasonably sized classes. </p>

<p>“I am quite confident that students at Cornell are better academically than students at Rochester.”</p>

<p>Having myself been the stupidest physics major at Cornell, at one time, this post actually seems like a fair point to me. Physics is really, really hard, and the people who are (or were, anyway) majoring in it at Cornell were brilliant. As it turns out, I was less than brilliant, by comparison, and I didn’t do all that well there. </p>

<p>The people who were that brilliant did incredibly well, they were getting great opportunities, went on to MIT, Cal Tech, etc. Will that be you, probably? You decide. But I limped my butt out of there. Will I be you??</p>

<p>Thankfully, someone took pity on me and I was accepted to do an M.Eng. there in EE. Which certainly was not the end of the world. And the rest, as they say, is history.</p>

10

<p>Wow, thank you so much to everyone who took the time to reply to my questions, especially ironclaw. From the replies, it seems that UR would be a great school to go to. Whether I’d be limping out of Cornell or wildly succeeding, I’d have to guess somewhere in between, but I think if I worked hard I could manage my classes. I should point out that physics is certainly not my definite major, biology, neuroscience and computer science all seem interesting too.</p>

<p>Ironclaw, I appreciate your question about how realistic a desire to be about average is, you might be right that it’s not really what I want. Your interpretation of my mentioning dumb questions is exactly right, it’s just frustrating to spend time, in what’s supposed to be the hardest class at my school, differentiating between non-negative and positive numbers. I don’t think I’m overestimating my abilities too greatly, I have a lot of classes with really smart professors’ kids from Cornell (I actually live in Ithaca) and I do at least as well as them in math/science (excluding the school’s one genius). I would love to hear about your college experiences if you had the time to share them.</p>

<p>Thanks again for all the replies, I was surprised at how much I learned just from asking these questions.</p>

11

<p>Oh, and to WayOutWestMom, I guess I’m not a crazy rock climber or anything. I XC ski, downhill ski for a week or weekend every year, play frisbee, backpack, bike and have rowed at my high school for three years though. But what you described sounds nice, thanks for the information.</p>

12

<p>Physicshopeful, I’m glad that you find my reply useful. I will write about my experiences in the physics program.</p>

<p>But before I do that, I suggest that it may be useful to post a similar thread (or link to this thread) in the [Cornell</a> subforum](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/]Cornell”>Cornell University - College Confidential Forums). You probably know a lot about Cornell already, since you live in Ithaca, but my main reason for thinking it is useful to post this in the Cornell subforum is that it helps reduce [confirmation</a> bias](<a href=“Positive Bias: Look Into the Dark — LessWrong”>Positive Bias: Look Into the Dark — LessWrong) - the people who browse this subforum are more likely to be in favor of Rochester, while the people who browse the Cornell subforum are more likely to be in favor of Cornell. Having only this thread may bias you towards Rochester, whether you are conscious of this or not.</p>

<p>(Off-topic note: I linked to the community blog [Less</a> Wrong](<a href=“http://lesswrong.com/]Less”>http://lesswrong.com/) for “confirmation bias”. You seem to be the type of person (smart, young, and interested in science - particularly physics) who is likely to enjoy and benefit from the topics there. I suggest that you take a look at the [sequences[/url</a>] to see if they interest you.)</p>

<p>So, about my experiences here as a physics student. I have had a very positive experience so far. The introductory mechanics course in the honors sequence - PHY 141 - is challenging, and some people disliked the course because of that, but I found it enjoyable, and I also thought that the professor taught very well and had a good sense of humor. The same professor teaches this course every fall - you can check out the work that we do on the [url=&lt;a href=“http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/PHY141/CourseInformation/CourseInformation.htm]course”&gt;Course Information Physics 141]course</a> webpage](<a href=“http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Sequences]sequences[/url”>Sequences - LessWrong). I have also taken an introductory astronomy course - [AST</a> 111](<a href=“http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~dmw/ast111/]AST”>http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~dmw/ast111/) - and I am now taking PHY 143. Again, both courses are challenging, and some people hate that, but they are enjoyable for me. I felt that the professors were very knowledgeable about their field, and their teaching styles were good - clear and easy to understand, often with a sense of humor.</p>

<p>A good thing about Rochester’s course offerings is that most departments in the natural sciences offer an honors (or more advanced) version of their introductory sequences - I know that this is true for physics, chemistry, biology, and math. I feel that people taking the honors courses are generally more capable and more interested in the subject, and this certainly keeps the courses challenging enough for me. I am also overloading to 23 credits right now, and that keeps me pretty occupied, which I again enjoy.</p>

<p>I strongly suggest that you take a look at the departmental webpages here at Rochester, as well as those at Cornell. Take a look at the degree requirements, and the courses that are offered, and see if they match up with what you want or expect. To get you started, here is the [Rochester</a> physics department webpage](<a href=“http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/]Rochester”>http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/). Note: The webpage design looks pretty bad, but there is good information in there, particularly in the ‘Education -> Undergraduate’ section.</p>

<p>Use [this</a> page](<a href=“https://cdcs.ur.rochester.edu/]this”>https://cdcs.ur.rochester.edu/) to search for courses that are offered next semester. Also useful is the [adviser</a> handbook](<a href=“https://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/AdviserHandbook/index]adviser”>https://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/AdviserHandbook/index), which contains a lot of information on academic requirements and regulations. Of course, you should also look for the corresponding information on Cornell, so that you can make an informed choice.</p>

<p>I think I should say I few things about the perks of being a relatively exceptional student. I think that you will be above average academically if you come to Rochester; I come to this conclusion from the simple fact that you were admitted to Cornell. It is my general impression that many students here were rejected from Ivy League or comparable colleges, and came to Rochester as a result. This would explain Rochester’s low yield of 23% - meaning that less than one in four admitted students actually matriculate here. If you give me more information, I should be able to better judge how you would compare to students here - this will allow me to tell you whether you would find many stupid questions here.</p>

<p>So, some of the advantages of being relatively academically brilliant:

[ul]
[<em>]It feels good! Okay, this is pretty subjective, and it is something that I mentioned in my previous post.
[</em>]Professors notice you. It is much easier to stand out from your peers, and this is a good thing - it is easier to get good recommendations, and you are informed of opportunities. This also links to the previous point - one of my professors sent me the most awesome congratulatory email I have ever received - it made my day.
[li]You need to be the best in your college to qualify for some outside scholarships and fellowships. Many competitive awards (e.g., the Goldwater Scholarship, a prestigious sophomore/junior science award) require a nomination from the college, and colleges can only nominate a certain number of students. It will easier to get nominated at Rochester than at a more competitive college.[/li][/ul]</p>

<p>It is difficult for me to think of the advantages of being relatively academically average. This does not mean that there aren’t any good ones - I might be unknowingly missing out on a lot by being here at Rochester instead of Princeton, where I would be academically average. I simply don’t know. Some potential advantages:

[ul]
[<em>]You have more friends you can ask for help on homework.
[</em>]More academically stimulating discussions.
[/ul]</p>

<p>Let me know if you have any questions.</p>

13

<p>“But before I do that, I suggest that it may be useful to post a similar thread (or link to this thread) in the Cornell subforum.”</p>

<p>He’d probably still get me, either way, IIRC I am the only one hanging there who studied Physics at Cornell. Poster collegehelp studied engineering physics there, which is pretty darned close, but for some reason he never posts on that topic, or on the Cornell subforum either. I don’t browse forums per se, I search for “cornell” and see where I have something useful (IMO) to contribute about it, wherever that subforum may be.</p>

<p>But by all means, browse away.</p>

<p>If OP would like me to list some of the disadvantages to being relativey academically stupid, that is a topic I can contribute to. Though it was my observation that many of those better off in that regard did quite well for themselves subsequently following Cornell, as per my prior post.</p>

14

<p>monydad, I would gladly learn of the consequences of being in the lower portion of the class. Thanks for the advice you’ve given so far.</p>

<p>Ironclaw, that’s a great idea, I’ll make sure I put a link in the Cornell forums. After a quick glance, that blog does seem fascinating. Based on your planned majors/minor, I gather it is possible to study several fields if you’re willing to put in some time and effort. Is this more possible at UR than some schools because of the flexibility of the curriculum?</p>

<p>Here are my stats briefly, they seem pretty similar to yours:
SAT: 2310
SAT 2s: 800 Math 2, 800 chem, 780 us history, 780 biology
GPA: 4.15 (on 4.33 scale)
APs:
Junior Year<br>
US History (5)
Chemistry (5)
Senior Year
Calc BC
Physics C
Com Sci A</p>

<p>I made it to the AIME and the second level of the physics Olympiad this year (totally wrecked by the second physics test, my teacher said it was too late to study by the time I found out I’d made it so I knew about 10% of what I needed for the test).
I guess that about summarizes it, no incredible awards or research with college professors. I should mention that Cornell tends to accept more students from my school because they know it’s a decent public school with quality students. I am very impressed you were accepted to MIT and Princeton, I just got wait listed at Penn and rejected at Dartmouth and Princeton. All that to say, there’s certainly a chance I would be nothing special at UR, just an average student. I don’t really know.</p>

<p>It’s great to hear about the honors courses, though I should probably be finding that out by myself on their website, thanks for the links. That is a good point about being noticed by professors, congratulations on standing out in your class.</p>

<p>If you were wondering what other advantages might come from being average at a school, I have a few more.

  1. Class moves faster and the teacher can take time to go into more detail in important areas.
  2. When more is expected of you, you tend to work hard and perform at a higher level.
  3. It’s easier to work with people who figure things out at about the same rate as you.</p>

<p>I should also say I’m kind of known in my physics class for asking stupid questions. Not exactly stupid, but completely irrelevant to the practical applications of what we’re learning (i.e. What if a Faraday cage didn’t have enough free electrons to balance out the external field?).</p>

15

<p>A couple more quick questions, does it matter if you have a mac vs. pc? Do you have to run programs in computer science or physics that require a powerful processor or would any laptop work? Is a 13 inch screen the right size for college? I’ve read about this online but everyone has a different opinion.
Thanks.</p>

16

<p>Physicshopeful, your academic stats look very similar to mine, (with the exceptions of my GPA being .75 points lower, my lack of SAT-testing [I’m from the midwest. It’s cool to take the ACT here] and less emphasis on astronomy), and I’ve had a lot of similar questions, so bump.
Also, to help you out with making the choice, I suggest this: [Action</a>, Camera, Light!](<a href=“Meetings | Society of Physics Students”>Meetings | Society of Physics Students) -> This helped hook me to Rochester. Quantum physics rocks my world; entanglement is even cooler.
Also, this page has a lot of really cool information on it: [Research</a> | Department of Physics and Astronomy](<a href=“http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/page/research_main]Research”>http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/page/research_main)
I’m sure you’ve already done a lot of research on each university, but I just thought I’d throw that one out there. I’ve noticed a lot of really cool research going on at Rochester, and that’s what I’m all about. It should be known, however, that I haven’t looked at any of Cornell’s research, which I wouldn’t be surprised to find is better in many areas considering its history and ranking in physics.
I do know, however, from what research I have done, that Rochester’s quantum physics education looks absolutely fantastic. I guess it just depends on which area of physics you are most interested in.
I hope to see you at Rochester!</p>