URM and GPA Question?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>I'm an undergrad currently at Cornell University with a 3.4 GPA. I am also a black URM and I am heavily involved in campus activities. I don't think my GPA will rise consideraby and will probably stay at 3.4. Also, I transferred to Cornell from NYU with a 3.8 GPA after one year. I haven't taken the LSAT yet however. So two questions. Let's say I get 165+ on my LSAT will I likely be able to get into any of the law schools of my choice (Columbia, Penn, NYU, U Chicago, Yale). Also, how will they take my former NYU gpa in consideration?</p>

<p>Secondly, one of my best friends is a female of Pakistani/Indian origin, would she be considered a URM in the eyes of law schools? Thank You.</p>

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<p>3.4 +165+ URM+ Cornell UG= Likely reject from all t14. You certainly won't get into to Yale, Harvard or Stanford with those numbers. Columbia, Penn, et el, are huge reaches. Georgetown, Cornell, et al, are all reaches but not impossible. Your GPA from NYU will be calculated into your overall GPA, so maybe that'll give a fighting chance. </p>

<p>Did you do something amazing in undergrad? If not, consider yourself out of the top 6.</p>

<p>Your pakistani friend will be considered a URM.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Your pakistani friend will be considered a URM.

[/quote]
What? No she won't.</p>

<hr>

<p>(3.4*2 + 3.8)/3=3.53. </p>

<p>For a non-URM:
With a 3.53 GPA, it seems to take roughly the following LSAT's to get into:</p>

<p>Columbia: 170
Penn: 168
NYU: 168
Chicago: 171</p>

<p>Chances for Yale are impossible to do, so we won't bother.</p>

<p>But it looks to me like (assuming you get your 165) you're a lock for those schools, not even a mild reach.</p>

<hr>

<p>In any case, it is, as always, silly to do chances without a real LSAT score in hand.</p>

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<p>hey bluedevilmike, where did you come up with those numbers for Columbia, Penn, NYU, Chicago? did you you use some sort of calculator or are they based on your own guessing? </p>

<p>and is it significantly harder to get into Columbia than NYU?</p>

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<p>Oh, sorry. Forgot to mention that I was using the graphs available on lawschoolnumbers.com.</p>

<p>The graphs should not be considered absolutely reliable, as they are self-reported.</p>

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<p>anybody else?</p>

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<p>I'm going to agree with bluedevil- IF you get 165, I think you have a very good shot at NYU, Columbia etc. etc. A solid LSAT score in the mid 160's and URM status will boost your chances of admission to these schools.</p>

<p>Also check LSD.org (law school discussion) and the law school number graphs. You get a pretty good idea of what stats get you into the schools.
I think law school is mostly a numbers game based on GPA and LSAT's, but I am beginning to think it helpful to have at least one solid Leadership activity too. I think that can act as a "tie-breaker" when reviewing applications. So being involved with campus activities could help you alot.</p>

<p>My kid is also at Cornell (not URM) - she wants to work a year or 2 before applying to law school. Her LSAT's and GPA are a bit higher and I think she has a shot at a T10-14 acceptance. She'll probably also look at Fordham- Vanderbilt-UCLA-GW and a few others. Based on the feedback I have gotten on this board, there seems to be a concensus that if you are staying in the NY area, you should aim for a T-14 acceptance and if not--then Fordham.<br>
(I know you asked about fordham on another thread).<br>
so I just wanted to pass that info onto you.<br>
again- don't get too carried away with these discussion boards. You really do need your LSAT score before you start figuring out what law school you should attend.
Good luck with the LSAT's and have fun in Ithaca. My kid loves it.</p>

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<p>wow this is helpful because I am in a similiar situation (non URM however) and I go to Cornell too.</p>

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<p>btw, marny1 is your kid in the ILR school at cornell? I know it's a big feeder for law schools.</p>

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<p>Cornell09--
I hesitate giving out too much info as my kid would probably kill me but I will answer this question ONLY. The answer is yes. As so many ILR kids go to law school, I don't think I am giving too much info away.</p>

<p>Have fun on winter break!</p>

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<p>BDM, I have to disagree. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.chiashu.com/cgi-bin/lsac.cgi%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.chiashu.com/cgi-bin/lsac.cgi&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look at that site. The overall chances of getting into the lowest t14 schools (Cornell, Mich, Georgetown) with those stats is 20%. YHS are all less than 2%. Figure being a URM gives you a 10% statistical boost, and you're still running at 30% for the lowest t14, and only about 10% for YHS.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Figure being a URM gives you a 10% statistical boost

[/quote]
Except that I think this is ridiculously pessimistic.</p>

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<p>I would really urge the OP to work hard and boost that GPA. It may not be sort of silly, but reality is that law schools tend to pay a lot of attention to break points. Someone with a 3.5 will have much better odds than someone with a 3.48, assuming other factors are equal. So, make the effort. It will matter. </p>

<p>The best way to get some sense of your future LSAT score is to take one under timed conditions. You can down load one for free at Law</a> School Admission Council :: LSAC.org. If possible, take it in an environment like a library (with some background noise) rather than in a quiet room. </p>

<p>Also are you male or female? There are fewer Af-Am males than females in law school and males in the aggregate have lower GPAs (and higher LSAT scores.) I'd give better odds to a Af-Am male with that GPA than an AF-Am female. However, I'd also give better odds to an AF-Am female with a 165 LSAT than a Af-Am male with a 165 LSAT. </p>

<p>Your friend is a URM at very non-diverse law schools. Most of the top ones are diverse and she would NOT be considered URM.</p>

<p>One more point--from what I've seen, Cornell Law (which is a top 14) really does give a bump to its own undergrads. So, I would throw in an app to Cornell Law.</p>

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<p>"Except that I think this is ridiculously pessimistic."</p>

<p>Care to elaborate?</p>

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<p>I think you're underestimating the effects of affirmative action.</p>

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<p>I am an africfan-american male jonri. I have two semesters left at Cornell before I apply to law school (not counting my last semester of senior year). Right now I have a 3.4 and I would have to get a 3.8 BOTH semesters to move up to a 3.5, and that seems unlikely. I'll just hope for an AMAZING LSAT score.</p>

<p>And, I doubt with a 3.4 or 3.5 GPA and a 165+ LSAT that I can get into Yale, Harvard, Standford, correct?</p>

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<p>I'm not an admissions officer. So, like everyone else here, I'm guessing. </p>

<p>However, I'm confused by what you are saying about your GPA. You had a 3.8for two semesters at NYU. Then you had a 3.4 for 3 semesters at Cornell, right? My math says that would give you a 3.5 cum right now. If what you are saying is that you have a 3.4 including the 3.8, forget YHS. But if my understanding is correct and you have a 3.8 for your first year and a 3.4 for soph and half of junior year, then I really think that making the effort to insure that your overall GPA, including the 3.8 from NYU, is above 3.5 will make a world of difference. I'm mathematically challenged, but if I did this correctly, you have about a 3.56 right now. if you throw in two more semesters at 3.4, then assuming all of your courses count equally and that Cornell uses the same numbers for letter grades as LSDAS does, you are JUST going to squeak by the 3.5 line. </p>

<p>I'm just trying to warn you that the line as really, really important. Plus, your LSDAS GPA will be broken down by year as well, and moving your junior year and first half of senior year to the range above 3.5 also matters. I'm not talking about moving your gpa from 3.4 to 3.8. I'm talking about moving it from 3.4 to 3.5+, so when the LSs look at the summary sheet, only one number below 3.5 will show up--soph year GPA. If all the other numbers are 3.5 or better, I think you will have much better odds than if your junior year or first semester senior year GPA or most especially your cumulative GPA is below 3.5. </p>

<p>Are we on the same page now? (That's not sarcastic--it's hard to get tone across on a message board. I just honesly want to know if that is now understandable.) </p>

<p>A lot of the rest will depend on your LSAT. Hit a home run--at least a 175, and if you do have solid ECs, as you have claimed, write good essays, have good LORs, etc., then I think you DO have a chance at YHS, especially as an Af-Am male. If you get exactly a 165 LSAT, I do NOT think you have a shot at them. </p>

<p>In between, it's probably going to depend on your 'soft' factors. </p>

<p>But again, I'm just an attorney/parent, not an expert. </p>

<p>I wish you the best of luck--and just want to make the point that you really, really, really ought to keep as many #s on the 3.5+ side as possible.</p>

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<p>interesting tidbit I learned a few weeks ago on LSD.
the GPA/LSAT scores for the bottom 25 % of admitted students are not calculated into the 25 % - 75 % statistics that show up in US News- ABA info-etc. Therefore the law schools have alot more leeway as to who they will accept into the lower 25% grouping of admitted students. So it is not unheard , that even the top schools will accept a
- peace corp volunteer
- Army officer
- urm
with a 158 LSAT and 3.3 gpa (this is for example purposes only)
As the LSAT/GPA combo for bottom 1/4 of admitted students is not going to bring the 25%-75% stats down, the Law schools can take the most compelling and interesting applicants.</p>

<p>so even if you fall below the 25%, it is not impossible to get into any law school- but you do need an extremly interesting "package" to get the acceptance. and I'm talking Peace Corp- Save the World- etc. etc.
The info was shared by a poster on LSD who now does Law school consulting- he was formerly an admission counselor at a T-14. He sometimes posts on LSD probably to get new clients. He gives his name and e-mail address- so it is legit that he now works for the law school consulting firm.<br>
It is a smart marketing technique. He goes on LSD for a few hours- answers a bunch of questions and seems very forthright and knowledgeable. He probably also gets alot of new clients
so I really took the info he passed along as the truth!! </p>

<p>to both Cornellians who have posted- take a practice test or 2- see how you do with a practice LSAT.<br>
But- my kid did go up around 15 points from her first diagnostic to the real test. so don't get too discouraged when you begin your LSAT preparation.</p>

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<p>The best data I can find is very, very old. However:</p>

<p>"There were 108 blacks scoring 165 or better on the LSAT in 2004." The</a> Widening Racial Scoring Gap on Standardized Tests for Admission to Graduate School ---</p>

<p>(1990) "Of the 1,620 students in the three-year school... 14 percent of the first-year class are black." (76 students.)
First</a> Black Elected to Head Harvard's Law Review - New York Times</p>

<p>Yale and Stanford seem to have classes of about 180 each (360 total), and 14% of that would be 50 kids.</p>

<p>So we're looking at 125 blacks at Harvard, Stanford, Yale; 110 nationally have scores 165 or higher.</p>

<p>Of course some of the 125 will be sub-165 scores. On the other hand, some of the 165's will go to other schools.</p>

<p>So it sounds to me like being black and 165+ is pretty much auto-admit at every school in the country.</p>

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<p>I will certainly admit that 1990 data is very old -- the problem was I wasn't able to find anything more official that was recent. Still, let's cut this in half to be conservative -- or 7%. Multiplied out across the schools, we're now talking about around 70 or so spots at the top three law schools, in which case my previous statement ("auto-admit at every school in the country") is no longer true. It almost certainly would guarantee you a spot at one of the top six, however, especially with a 3.5+.</p>