<p>amen to that!</p>
<p>Racism still exists in this country</p>
<p>Racism is bad</p>
<p>Affirmative action is meant to combat racism</p>
<p>Combating racism is good</p>
<p>therefore</p>
<p>Affirmative action = good</p>
<p>ethio, your logic doesn't hold up.</p>
<p>The fact that affirmative action "is meant to combat racism" doesn't mean it accomplishes that goal.</p>
<p>Further, we could dye everyone's skin green and then that would be sure to combat racism (even better than affirmative action would). Does that mean that dying everyone's skin green is "good?"</p>
<p>Further, please tell me something. Since when do two wrongs make a right? I think you'd be hard pressed to find any major philosophical moral code that would condone that principle!</p>
<p>
Penn WANTS more blacks on their campus...period. If that angers you....don't apply.
</p>
<p>You sounds an aweful lot like those people who used to say, "If you don't like America you can giitttttttttt out!"</p>
<p>My position: The most qualified students should be accepted, however there should be special help areas and tutoring programs for students in lower socioeconomic brackets. Ebony magazine had a recent article profiling America's most succesful African Americans. Each was asked how they became succesful. Not one of them, not one, wrote anything remotely similar to "affirmative action."</p>
<p>If I am operated on, I would want the most qualified candidate for the job performing my surgery.</p>
<p>Well put ASalientOne. Well put.</p>
<p>Asalient one just mentioned one of the strongest arguments against affirmative action. It's also the most vulnerable argument to charges of racism. It's a tragedy, but basically affirmative action casts doubt upon all successful blacks. Were they helped into med or law school? Are they in this position based on merit or political correctness? In this sense, affirmative action perpetuates prejudice which is completely counter-intuitive to its supposed goal.</p>
<p>well too bad</p>
<p>im qualified and i know it</p>
<p>i dont need affirmative action but many other blacks do</p>
<p>and im going to fight for them to have it</p>
<p>how could you argue with the majority of fortune 500 companies, and private colleges and universities filing "amicus curiae" witht he Supreme Court on the University of Michigan case last year...upholding affirmative action?</p>
<p>The army recognizes its necessity as well - you can;t have an all white officer corps leading an army thats nearly one quarter black and another quarter Hispanic</p>
<p>long live AA</p>
<p>I like your rebuttal to our arguments..."well too bad." Unlike you, I'll address what you have to say. First, let's examine what you say about other blacks needing it. Do they need it because they're poor or do they need it because they're black? If it's because they're poor I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think we can all agree however, that black people or any other minority for that matter are inherently less intelligent or capable than caucasions (although this seems to be the premise of the affirmative action argument). I also agree with you on your point about the military. In the case of the military it's a good point; we need leaders who the army will trust and that means a diverse array of them. We're talking college admissions though...not the military.</p>
<p>peopel who are educated tend to take up teh higher positions in government, corporations, etc</p>
<p>if you dont ensure that there is an equal representation fo peopel across the board in these fields, you run into the same problem that the military does when its got an all-white officer corps commanding a sea of nonwhite faces</p>
<p>sorry about the "well too bad" thing im just tired</p>
<p>What problems do "all-white officer corps" have when "commanding a sea of nonwhite faces?" Is it the officer's problems that his soldiers do not see everyone as equal? Is it the officer's problems that, as much as you wouldn't like to admit it, it is his troops who are the racist ones!</p>
<p>Don't let anyone tell you that there isn't some racism alive in America. But don't let anyone tell you that it only comes from one color and is directed at a darker color. If you truly believe that, then you need to unplug yourself from the matrix, because not realizing that every race has members with a propensity to hate is a horrible mistake any citizen can have.</p>
<p>Now, as for your "amicus curiae" argument: you had me at appeal to authority AND at appeal to ignorance. I'm think there's a name for the logical fallacy name for those two fallacies rolled up into one</p>
<p>Do you not see the blatant unfairness in denying someone something because of their race or handing out another something else because of his? Please don't repond with anything remotely similar to "two wrongs make a right" because I swear I'll smite you!</p>
<p>Once again, I am not averse to, by ANY means, a way of helping <em>disadvantaged</em> members of our world a chance to improve themselves.</p>
<p>Just by the way, I want you all to know I feel like a heartless bastard for my stances on the issue, but in the realm of politics and science I'd be fooling myself if my heart trumped demonstrative logic!</p>
<p>"Once again, I am not averse to, by ANY means, a way of helping <em>disadvantaged</em> members of our world a chance to improve themselves."</p>
<p>being black in america IS a disadvantage</p>
<p>dont tell me that you believe that we live in a colorblind society where all races are treated equally and afforded the same treatment</p>
<p>if we did, there would be no reason for affirmative action. however, we do not. so, affirmative action is in place to counter those forces.</p>
<p>I believe the president (or provost or whatever he's called) of Harvard made a pretty good point when he said "society is conscious of people's race, and this is a disadvantage to minorities. why should we then refuse to be conscious of race when making admissions decisions?"</p>
<p>Hrm yes ethio, why don't I just be "conscious to race" since society is conscious to race. That sure makes a lot of sense...let's perpetuate the racist system because it exists! Africans got screwed a whole lot of years ago, and so let's screw the other people--that makes sense!</p>
<p>AA is R A C I S T. I'm sorry, I don't like racism, do you? People should be admitted on their ability to succeed, not on their skin color. An african american who drives a benz and goes to the same school as me has had the same opportunities as me, (and is no more disadvantaged or advantaged than I) so why should he be given the opportunity over me, or over anybody of any skin color?</p>
<p>It doesn't add up. And btw: I'm not from an affluent area, nor am I white.</p>
<p>
[quote]
being black in america IS a disadvantage
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So is being Jewish. So is being Asian. So is being overweight. So is being short. Ethio, I highly suggest you read what I've written and consider it all. Eisegesis won't work in this case, buster.</p>
<p>As for your "quotation" of harvard's provost (once again, a lovely appeal to authority!), I am sure you would be averse to considering race if you perceive it was your race who was being treated unfairly!</p>
<p>Funny how you're all pouring so much energy into this.....I haven;t read all of the posts because I'm on my way out and will read them later this evening...</p>
<p>But, let's get down to the nots and bolts of this...</p>
<p>HOW MANY African American students (not a %, the actual number) at Penn will benefit from an admissions tip due to race in 2005? What's the real magnitude of this situation? </p>
<p>And whomever keeps repeating the Mercedes Benz thing....get over it. You know one black kid driving a Mercedes and it's so stuck in your mind (because it's so unsual) that you're irate over it. Perhaps that kids has 1600 SATS....and doesn't need a tip. Not every black kid needs a tip. And, don't assume that anyone black who makes 6 figures has always had advantages. You can't judge people's experiences and life situations by their incomes....</p>
<p>lots of lessons to be learned here folks....lots.</p>
<p>I really think you're all looking at this from the wrong point of view. The impact of race factored tips in admissions has almost no impact.....African Americans are still underrepresented at colleges across the country. This means that colleges can't get African Americans to apply as much as they would like...and some of you don't even want the very few who do apply to be admitted (shame on you).</p>
<p>For the person who made the analogy about being operated on by the most qualified doctor, studies show that once African Americans are admitted, they perform JUST AS WELL in college as whites. However, more affluent blacks graduate at a higher rate for economic reasons. So, the problems isn't performance in college. The problem seems to be the standardized test used to judge qualification for admission.</p>
<p>Even then, the number of black students applying is so small.....and many of them are not American. I would wager to guess that the number of black students who will received a tip factor at Penn is probably about 30-40 for the class of '05. A drop in the bucket...... But, like I said, if those 30-50 students make you all that irate then by all means, start writing letters. </p>
<p>It's interesting to note that a diverse campus isn't of any value to any of you. </p>
<p>PS...my son is black and needs no tip....and I earn six figures....so please don't stone him when you see him on campus.</p>
<p>By the way, if colleges do away with race as a consideration, then less white students will be admitted than are admitted today...because the Asians have the highest scores and are currently overrepresented. Be careful what you ask for.</p>
<p>momsdream,</p>
<p>please stop patronizing us. the point isn't that I know one black kid who drives a mercedes - I know many - it's that there is a wide spectrum of disadvantage affecting blacks (all other races, too). The ones on the bottom should be given extra consideration (same with disadvantages whites, greens, blues, oranges), while the ones on the top should not (just as I shouldn't be given extra consideration because I've been fortunate enough to have very many opportunities to succeed).</p>
<p>The top end of the spectrum of disadvantaged, rather, advantaged, blacks, receive the same benefit from AA that do the more disadvantaged ones. In fact I would suggest that they receive an even greater benefit, because if I'm an adcom at a competitive college and I want to help a black kid with AA, it's in my best interest to choose one with a high SAT than one with a low one (and thus fill my quota, as UofM did).</p>
<p>"lots of lessons to be learned here folks..lots." Before you go flaunting your supreme wisdom, please take the time to actually listen to others - "I haven't read all of the posts.."</p>
<p>I read them.</p>
<p>I think you're still missing it. Adcoms aren't interested in "helping" black kids. They are interetsed in helping ALL students on the campus to understand what makes us different and what makes us similar. Therefore, they WANT the % of black kids on campus to mirror society as a whole.....and if they don't get enough qualified black kids to make that happen in a given year, they'll SLIGHTLY lower the bar to get a percentage or two extra in.....maybe an extra 30 kids or so.....nowhere near the % in the general population, but a little better. </p>
<p>And maybe some of those black kids come form a six figure home. But, they're still black. We live in a six figure family. My son goes to a private school. He used to get the crap kicked out of him because he was smart and spoke the King's english. He used to bus out of the area for school...and when the school bus would bring him home from his all-white school to our black neighborhood, the black kids in the neighborhood would stone the bus because it had white kids on it. Then they would beat up my son when he got off. My neighbor had to look out for him until he learned to fight, thanks to another neighbor who taught him Jujitsu. I could go on and on about some of the things the white kids at his school did to him....dressing him up in a snow suit and using him as a paintball target while they all stood on the back deck of a home calling him the N word while he ran aound in the yard (promising him that they would all take turns as the target). </p>
<p>Oh, but remember his mom earns six figures so he's just like you, right? </p>
<p>I write all of this not for you to feel sorry for him...but for you to understand that blacks have unique experiences. Colleges have figured it out.</p>
<p>I assure you that most parents with six figure incomes, or at least those with any sense, don't live in areas where their children are stoned for being ambitious and intelligent. When colleges appreciate the possible "different experiences" of applicants, they should consider things like worldviews, cultures, etc., and NOT harassment.</p>
<p>I don't care if the world is racist. AA promotes racism, and there's no denying it. It is an official, widely-accepted policy, that states that the races are not equal so there's no point in trying to make them such, essentially.</p>
<p>"Adcoms aren't interested in "helping" black kids." That's simply not true. The University of Michigan gave extra "points" to applicants just because of the applicants' skin color. Schools have quotas for how many black kids they have to have. I ask you again, what is so inherently good about people with darker skin pigmentation that they should be given such a boost? There is nothing. The most qualified candidates should be accepted, not those with certain looks.</p>
<p>You've mentioned this now, that colleges want to mirror the real world on their campuses. Why do you think this is true? And if it is true, what would be the advantage of this? When I go to the hospital I don't want a mirror of the real world - I want the most competent people available. Go to a competitive bank, or law practice. Do they employ different colored people so as to mirror the real world? Of course not, they employ those who are most qualified. Why shouldn't colleges be the same?</p>
<p>As for the degree of boost that these black (but otherwise non-outstanding) applicants are given, there are no statistics to base your, or my for that matter, logic on. Either way, it's the principle that matters, not how many points are being added to SAT averages. I encourage you to look around at CC posts for highly underqualified applicants who mention that they are "URM," and then are repeatedly told that they'll get in. I don't buy CC "chances" posts, but the trend is obvious.</p>
<p>"I encourage you to look around at CC posts for highly underqualified applicants who mention that they are "URM," and then are repeatedly told that they'll get in. I don't buy CC "chances" posts, but the trend is obvious. "</p>
<p>The "opinions" of unqualified CC chance predictors aren't the basis on which I choose to base my opinions of the future of american universities. I happen the think that half of the DD "what are my URM chances" are bogus....racists trying to make a point. Don't but it!</p>
<p>Anon., I assure you that you have no idea where most six figure black parents in Philadelphia live.....and you might be surprised. Most of us live in one zip code....same as mine. </p>
<p>"I don't care if the world is racist."
Obviously....which is a big part of the problem.</p>
<p>Anon, it is true to that college adcoms are not interested in helping black kids. They are interested in mirroring the general population because they feel that this is the best way to prepare students for the real world.....all students. They are also interested in marketing their college and increasing their app % and yield. Diversity is a big part of this. Diversity is a major challenge and one that top schools feel challenged to meet. You don't have to believe me and you don't have to agree with the mission of top colleges. I'm not here to convince you.....and I really have empathy for your anger....as I feel that you're too naive to understand.</p>
<p>Last spring I worked with a group of 1200 black teens who were all headed to the top colleges in the country. Most of them met more than the minimal qualifications (1400+ SATs) and were dismayed that they met white students who told them that they only made it into their colleges of choice because of AA. Some of the studenst were in tears when they told their stories of meeting kids like you on campus after working so hard to be the best. I really wish you would STOP!</p>