URM Chances

Parents Forum
1

<p>Please tell me my chances. I'm a friend of Runner8491 applying to Harvard EA.
GPA out of a 100
9th:93.6
10th:94.2
11th:97.8
12th:95.7
I'm taking the most rigorous courseload that is offered to me.</p>

<p>Senior Year Courses
AP Calculus
AP US History
AP English
Honors Theology IV
Honors French IV
Honors Physics</p>

<p>2 college courses(Intro Philosophy and Intermeditate Spanish. I have taken 3 college coures so far.</p>

<p>SATs- I took my SATs yesterday i'm projecting a least a 1380 due to kaplan courses
SAT:1320
USHis: 750
Writing:650
Chemistry: 700
Math IIC:600</p>

<p>ECs
Mock Trial/Debate-10 11 12
African American Club(President)- 10 11 12
Model UN(Ambassodor from Great Britain) - 10 11 12
Vice President of senior class-12
Peer Adviser to Freshman-12
Newspaper(Editor in Chief)-11 12
Volunteer at local hosptial- 100hrs
FBLA- 10 11 12
Track and Field (Letterman)- 9 10 11 12
National Honor Society- 11 12
Tutor at local Literacy School
Community Service Corps- 10 11 12 </p>

<p>I want to major in Political Science. I am an African-American that lives in a disadvantaged area. I also have several Academic Awards from school.
My HOOK: a 2wk. study abroad program in France.</p>

2

<p>Are your track PRs in the range that could contribute to a Division 1 team?</p>

3

<p>I gave feedback on this post when it was on another CC board...same feedback here.</p>

<p>I don't think a 2 week study abroad in France is a hook. Also, the 2 weeks study abroad in France contradicts the poster's reference to living in a disadvantaged area....unless a certain tie can be made to some scholarship or program that paid for the study abroad. The ECs are pretty much typical....not good, not bad. </p>

<p>This is more of a question that a criticism: How were you the Pres of the AA club for three years straight? Isn't there a term limit? Didn't anyone else want the job? Is your membership active? The fact that you were Pres for three years raises my eyebrows in wonder of just how active this club is....or does it just exist on paper?</p>

<p>Good luck on the SATs....as raising them would significantly increase your chances, I believe. </p>

<p>I am of the opinion that it's probably harder for an African American to get into Harvard because so many talented African American kids (and their parents) shoot for Harvard. Ocne a AA kid proves worthy of a top school, I think there's often an automatic leap for HYP.....making top AA candidates more easily found in the HYP candidate pool. I would be surprised to hear the parents of a top AA candidate saying "Bill has 1590 SATs and he's top 10% of his class.....Swarthmore (Wesleyan, Amherst, Williams, etc) material for sure!" </p>

<p>Go for it.... Honestly though, I wish you had something that made you stand out from the rest of the Harvard candidates...besides being black.</p>

4

<p>"I am of the opinion that it's probably harder for an African American to get into Harvard because so many talented African American kids (and their parents) shoot for Harvard. Ocne a AA kid proves worthy of a top school, I think there's often an automatic leap for HYP.....making top AA candidates more easily found in the HYP candidate pool. "</p>

<p>The pool of African Americans with the background to be admitted at Harvard is very small. Those students also are highly sought after by a variety of schools, including top 10 schools that will offer major merit aid, something Harvard will not do. Add to this, there are second and third tier schools that will offer full scholarships, mentorships, paid experiences abroad and even laptops to top African American students. (FAMU and Howard, have been known to offer laptops. Wake Forest offers top students full scholarships plus paid international summer trips. Rice offers wonderful mentorships).</p>

<p>Harvard gets heavy competition for top African American students from Stanford (which I think has attracted more black freshmen than has Harvard in recent years) and from University of Florida, Florida A&M and Howard, all of which have, I think, sometimes bested Harvard in attracting National Achievement Scholars.</p>

<p>This does not mean, however, that the student who posted has an automatic in. I don't make predictions because I don't have a crystal ball and because I know that stats posted on a message board give an incomplete picture of what a candidate has to offer.</p>

<p>I have seen black students with similar stats and ECs get rejected from Harvard. I also have seen black students with weaker scores get accepted. The student has a chance of admission, but I would not wager a guess at how much of a chance he has. I would predict though, that the student can get into a top 25 college.</p>

5

<p>Interesting point NSM....</p>

<p>You're saying that the competition for spots for African Americans at Ivies isn't all that great because most top AfAm students are from families that need more aid than Ivies are willing to offer? (Does Stanford offer Merit?)</p>

<p>If so, this is even more interesting because it essentially cuts middle class African Americans (I guess this extends to most of the middle class, regardless of race) out of the Ivy picture (middle class won't get the full ride need aid because they have decent income, but not enough income to pay the tuition). So, what you'll end up with is either very low income (under $40K yr) or upper income AfAms at Ivies. </p>

<p>The middle class is forced to seek merit aid at non-Ivy schools. (?)</p>

<p>Am I correct in this line of thinking or is there more to it?</p>

6

<p>momsdream:</p>

<p>You'll recall the anti-trust suit that the Federal government launched against Ivies and some other top schools. The crux of the matter was that these colleges tried not to compete against one another for the most desirable students by throwing money at them. They would abide strictly by demonstrated need in making their offers. When they met, they compared these offers. The government's suit claimed that this was a breach of the anti-trust laws. The universities settled with the government and stopped comparing offers. Since then, there has been fierce competition not only among the schools involved in the suit but more generally. URMs are highly desired in practically every college and thus highly courted, usually with money, but also with non-financial benefits. As NSM suggested, in some cases, URMs get major merit aid and other benefits. Since many of the high achieving URMs are middle class, they share the same economic constraints as other middle class families. Their demonstrated financial need may be less than what they feel their real need is. In these circumstances, it is hard to turn down major merit money. </p>

<p>Not all schools have the same yardstick for defining need. I know that Princeton is generally regarded as being most generous, and Harvard is not far behind. And need-blind colleges have been known to increase their offers when shown competing ofinancial offers. </p>

<p>In order not to violate their need blind policies yet still attract URMs, colleges have had to do a lot more recruiting, in places where they are quite unfamiliar. I read somewhere that Harvard was having some difficulty trying to act on President Larry Summers' initiative to enable low income families to attend Harvard. People have reported receiving recruiting letters although they are by no means either URM or low-income; I suspect that this is because the Harvard recruiting effort is a hit or miss one.</p>

7

<p>"You're saying that the competition for spots for African Americans at Ivies isn't all that great because most top AfAm students are from families that need more aid than Ivies are willing to offer? (Does Stanford offer Merit?)"</p>

<p>No, that's not what I am saying. Ivies give aid up to students' documented financial need. They are not in the business of offering merit aid. They have such high overall yield rates that Ivies don't have to bribe students to accept their admission offers. Even without offering merit aid, the places like Ivies still attract fabulous classes.</p>

<p>Other places like Wash U, U Michigan, University of Chicago, Duke, Emory, many historically black colleges, many public universities, many tier 2 and other universities will give highly sought after students of all races full merit aid and other perks including laptops and international travel.</p>

<p>Such schools can't compete with places like Harvard when it comes to prestige. They can, though, compete when it comes to offering merit aid and perks since Harvard and Ivies (and Stanford) don't give merit aid. (Stanford does give some athletic scholarships, though).</p>

<p>I have seen stellar students of all races turn down Harvard or not even consider applying to Ivies because they got or knew they'd get merit scholarship offers from less highly ranked schools. Sometimes, the students also bow to parental pressure. </p>

<p>Last year, for instance, a black student posted on CC that she had applied to U Pitt early in the fall because they sent her a free application. A couple of weeks later, the student was offered full aid, and her parents jumped for joy at the thought of not having to pay for her education. (Just imagine them mentally redirecting their savings into nice vacations, a new home, early retirement, etc.). </p>

<p>With that offer in hand, it was very hard for the student to convince her parents to consider allowing her to apply to a more prestigious college where she would not qualify for full aid.</p>

<p>I have seen stellar middle and upper middle class students of all races turn down Ivies for far less selective colleges that offer wonderful merit aid packages.</p>

<p>I even know an Ivy professor whose child turned down a top Ivy to accept a merit aid plus guaranteed excellent summer internships offer from a school ranked in the lower half of the top 50. </p>

<p>Even very educated parents will support or push their kids to do things like this because the parents feel that if their child is so bright and talented, they always can go to an Ivy or similar university for grad school.</p>

<p>IMO a student of any race who can get in to a place like HPYS probably can get excellent merit aid from some top 50 schools. A URM who can get into a place like HPYS probably can get amazing merit aid from some top 25 schools. </p>

<p>I know that you are willing to pay full freight for your son to go to college. However, if you were into looking for the best merit aid packages that he could get, you'd find that he is golden.</p>

8

<p>OK, I was just trying to understand your point in your first post......</p>

<p>Yes, my son's choice in schools isn't based on financials and our entire family (extended included) agrees that we all support his decision....collectively. If he doesn't get into his ED choice, all bets are off and the bidding can begin :)</p>