URM Conundrum

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"the % of them must be extremely low (we ARE talking about top 25 colleges) b/c of the fact that many of their pops. in college are less than 10%."
Wait. So now it's OK that the system is abused because, according to one person who cites no facts, it isn't abused much? And do you know what? Only ONE top USNews 25 school, Caltech, has less than 10% URMs (Native Americans, Hispanics, and African Americans). And even they had 9%. ONE, not many, not most, heck, not even 2. There goes your credibility.

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<p>I think that you may be looking at 2 separate issues here. While you may be citing an overall URM population I believe that historic is talking about the number of African American URMs in the top 25 schools in his/her statement that</p>

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Despite the fact that rich black and hispanic kids take advantage of AA (which by the way, bugs the hell out of me), the % of them must be extremely low (we ARE talking about top 25 colleges) b/c of the fact that many of their pops. in college are less than 10%.

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<p>If this is what s/he meant then they are absolutely correct in this assessment. Just look up the common data set (or check the information at the school's office of institutional research)</p>

<p>Please post a link to the poll or whatever you are referencing in the above-linked thread. Also, both here and in that thread, you/me fail to properly define the term 'economic AA'. To me, a form of economic AA is already in place, the one where the adcom adjusts it's expectations to what kind of school you went to, and takes into consideration if you had to work to help with paying bills. The fin. aid packages could also be considered economic AA.
If, as I suspect, your definition of economic AA is that we should have quotas, so every year Harvard is trying to have 20% of it's kids from a low income bracket becasue 20% of the pop. is in that bracket. If this is the type of thing you mean, then I would venture a guess that most kids who are against racial AA are against 'economic AA' for the following reasons: Quotas are never good, they are bound to cause tension and leave out some who should have made the cut, and accept some who really shouldn't have, just for the sake of reaching an 'ideal' number. Plus, in much the same way racial AA puts whites and Asians at a disadvantage, this type of AA would be a terrible deal for the middle class. As a school like Harvard would increase it's amount of poor acceptees, the costs to them in fin. aid would skyrocket. They would be forced to admit more of those who can pay full price to make up for it, squeezing the middle class. This is already happening on a small scale. The adcoms at top schools frequently admit that they admit more kids from the top level of income to be able to pay for more of the low income kids. As racial AA breeds and encourages stereotypes and hatred towards minorities, so would this type of economic AA breed malevolence towards the poor. Now that would be bad! To make the public opinion, generally inclined towards charity, against the disadvantaged? Not a good idea. </p>

<p>It brings up an interesting little parable I just read in a D'Souza book that demonstrates a point about the welfare state in general, but could also be applied to types of economic AA, where some of it is already happening on a VOLUNTARY basis. It demonstrates why we might not want to make economic AA an official policy so to speak.</p>

<p>Say a you are sitting on a bench with a sandwich, and a poor man comes up and asks you for it. You can give him the sandwich, and you will feel good about yourself, and you will know that perhaps someday the poor man will return your kindness to someone else. Also, the man is fed. It is generally a good outcome for both, so you do it often. You have, without a doubt, performed a good moral deed.
Now suppose the same situation, except that this time, when the man asks for the sandwich, another man with a gun comes over, points it at your head, takes the sandwich, and gives it to the poor man. Every times this happens, you develop an animosity towards the armed man, and eventually a hatred of the poor man. The poor man begins to feel that it is his right to recieve the sandwiches, and becomes ungrateful to the armed man, always demanding more.
The two situations have the exact same result. You lsoe a sandwich that the poor man gains. But were the actions of the armed man moral? Most of us would say no.</p>

<p>Ok, Sybbie, so if I exclude Native Americans (historic specified Hispanics and blacks), I still believe perhaps 5 of the top 25 have less then 10%.</p>

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Ok, Sybbie, so if I exclude Native Americans (historic specified Hispanics and blacks), I still believe perhaps 5 of the top 25 have less then 10%.

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<p>Part of me still thinks that there is a disconnect in this conversation. Are you stating that the total number of URM in the top 25 schools exceed 10% of course you are correct because both groups hispanics and african americans each have between 6 and 8 percent students enrolled. </p>

<p>Are we also counting the elite Lacs specifically middlebury, hamilton, colby etc have considerably less (aroung 2 to 3 percent of each group)</p>

<p>Considering that the crux of the this discussion was specifically about african americans being URMs in the admissions process.</p>

<p>Or are you saying that the top 25% of the top schools in the country have more than 10% african americans enrolled. I am not going to go back and forth with this spitting hais because if you were to look at each category afircan american, hispanic and native american, no one group is over 10% at some schools a large number is about 8% african americans with the norm usually between 6 and 7%.</p>

<p>I am not getting into the whole economic aspect because most of the top 25 schools (elite lacs or national universities) are need blind so a person's financial need is not a factor in the admissions process.</p>

<p>O sorry sybbie, I get what you are saying now. I guess that's just not how historic's statement came across to me as I read it. Doh! if he/she meant that.</p>