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I suppose some might say the peers are on equal footing to the students, whereas the parents have the benefit of more education, presumably having finished college, perhaps graduate school too. If parents are not allowed to help in any way, shape, or form, perhaps professors should clarify that at the beginning of term. Should I not have helped D with chemistry homework when her TA wasn’t available? Is that any different?</p>
<p>“He says that he is willing to bear the consequences of procrastination on the aps.”</p>
<p>This is the heart of this, I think. A 17-year-old may think he is willing to bear the consequences, but he doesn’t really understand what they are, and he’s not yet able to prioritize in a mature way. I think there is a delicate balance in parenting–you do want kids to learn certain things the hard way, by making mistakes and living with the consequences, but you need to intervene when the consequences are out of proportion to the mistake. So, for example, you won’t save your kid from missing a fun activity because he’s procrastinated work that’s due the next day, but you may save him from screwing up his college applications over something similar.</p>
<p>My theory of parenting is that we should be in a continual un-helicoptoring mode from school age onward so that they become independent, responsible adults. For example at some point around 5th grade we allowed him to go the the lake down the street with friends to fish or swim and by hs senior year we imposed no weekend curfews knowing that he would have none when in college and that this freedom would be better first experienced under some parental supervision.</p>
<p>He is now a college senior and the umbilical cord is almost nonexistant. He is officially a NYS resident with plans to attend grad school on his dime somewhere a 1000+ miles away. Don’t tell him cuz its a secret, but we may help him out financially if decent finaid support is not forthcoming. The Blackhawk is not quite grounded yet.</p>
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<p>Helping with college homework? I’d say no.</p>
<p>A lot depends on your assumptions as to what the purpose of college is. One key element, IMO, is learning to function as an adult. This means maintaining a schedule, dealing with the consequences of procrastination, handling illness without mommy, and hunting down resources (like a TA, a friendly upperclassman, etc.) when necessary. A student who made it through math with lots of parental help in HS may learn in college that math simply isn’t his forte and deal with it by dropping the course, getting a bad grade, or working incredibly hard to survive the class. In short, the student learns to work without a safety net for all but the most life-threatening situations. Freshman year is the start of “real life”, even though the coddling environment of most colleges will postpone the real rude awakening for four more years.</p>
<p>I’ve always thought that sending one’s kid off to a distant college is a good way to accomplish this objective, and to simultaneously reduce the temptation to get involved in solving trivial problems, helping with assignments, etc. (Unfortunately, cell phones, IM, and email are great for staying in touch but can work at cross-purposes to the student’s developing independence if the parent lets that happen.)</p>
<p>We Americans have cultish fetish for individuality. I remember once reading
in a child-rearing book that no child over 7 should ever have a sandwich
made for them (because they can do it themselves). Made me wonder
whether it was really OK for my husband to make a sandwich for me on
the weekends for lunch!</p>
<p>Maybe my husband should feel bad that he has a secretary, and assistant,
and a technical staff at work?</p>
<p>Let’s develop a little nuance here. There is a difference between
interdependence and undermining growth toward adulthood.</p>
<p>As for “relish” being a big word. I just looked at DS’s SAT essay online.
It contained words like: cajol, ensue, default, endeavor, and colossal,
and phrases like: “corral unseemly behavior”, and “shackled by the
government”. I dare a college counselor to do better in 25 minutes.</p>
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<p>This is a sidebar to the helicoptering issue, but I think the app essays are a special situation for many kids and parents. This is very much a time to ask yourself what is really going on with the kid, why is there procrastination. Kids who are super organized otherwise can get real hung up with the essays. Kids can channel all their anxieties about being accepted, etc, into that essay.
This is one area to helicopter, in a way that gets the emotion out of it - just as perhaps you defused tantrums when they were 2. As in “You have to get this done, this is the weekend it will be done, you won’t go visit your friends, etc until you are finished”, but coupled with “We don’t talk about college after this for at least 1 month” “You don’t have to think about college or make any decisions until next spring, but getting the essay finished gives you that freedom - so it has to be finished” “the essay is not the most important part of your app, but it has to be finished, neat, and proofed”</p>
<p>I do truly think we blow the essay way out proportion to its importance, which feeds into the difficulty of the task.</p>
<p><quote>What about this scenario? One college student writes a paper and finds a peer in his dorm or class to read and edit it. Another college student e-mails the paper home to his parents to edit it.
Do others see any difference here?</quote></p>
<p>The difference is that the first student is working with and learning from peers, which is a cornerstone of both a liberal arts education. The second student might as well save his/her parents some money by living at home and enrolling in a correspondence college.</p>
<p>A tangent on the helicopter issue: if the need arises, please let your student call the admissions office / selection committee for the program he/she desperately wants to attend.</p>
<p>I have it on good authority (three people involved with selecting students for two different competitive programs) that a call from a parent raises a flag of doubt. “If the student really wants to attend, why isn’t he/she asking how to submit test scores or whether the recommendation has arrived?” and “Will this parent who’s calling now be calling all the time during the program?” are just two of the concerns I’ve heard.</p>
<p>There’s a line that is crossed- I’m not sure quite where the line is… but it’s there. I agree with a previous poster that referred to the situation of a student finding out in college that he’s really not that good in math, because throughout high school he had a lot of math help from his parents (or whoever…). I used to wonder about stuff like that myself, when my kids were in hs and came to me for help with proofing/editing papers. I couldn’t help them at ALL with math and science, and as everyone can probably tell by my contorted scribblings, I might not have been doing my kids any favors in the writing department either!</p>
<p>I have a friend who, thoughout her son’s high school experience, carefully monitored him, his activities, his schedule- including how/when he got his homework and projects done. Of course, he was an excellent student. I wonder, nowadays, how he’s doing it on his own. She doesn’t talk about how he’s doing grade-wise and I don’t ask. But it’s GOT to be a hard adjustment to go from having a secretary/personal advisor/trainer telling you how and when to do things, to being totally and completely on your own. My own kids had their shakeups during the freshman year, then they realized that no one was going to be their ‘handler’. Thankfully the shakeups were nothing more serious than good “wakeup calls”, which I suspect is what happens with most students.</p>
<p>At the huge university they go to, it would be impossible for me to get very involved. It’s just too darned big, so it’s pretty much sink or swim for my guys.</p>
<p>privatecitizen-sometimes the parent calls an admissions office, because there student has already received notice that something is incomplete and they are at school and not allowed to make telephone calls. (D is at school at 7:30 for a 7:45 bell Central time, she has difficulty contacting schools in EST) Additionally, whose credit card is being used to pay for all of those tests and transcripts to be sent out? </p>
<p>If a parent contacting the admission office to ascertain what specifically was not received when student receives an e-mail to that effect or their file states application incomplete and does not specify what is missing keeps the student out of that school, then they obviously don’t believe that parents have an EFC either. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>My son is in grade 8 so I don’t know if my approach will work for you, but if he starts to balk at our help I back off and tell him that if we care more about his future than he does there is no reason for us to no longer be involved with his education. I even forced myself to miss one of his school debates to make the point. He was stunned and immediately turned everyone thing around. His study habits and grades improved markedly. I tell him he’s too bright to rebel against our caring about him. He’s gotten the point- for now.</p>
<p>Missing his debate stunned him? My older daughter would try to hide when her performances or events were. We’d show up anyway, sometimes hiding in the stands or audience so she wouldn’t know we were there, just to see her perform. She was awesome. But she would not allow us to be helicoptor parents. And she set a great example for her younger sister, who is less sneaky at hiding her games, performances, and events, but really doesn’t mind if we don’t show up at all of them. And she doesn’t expect helicoptoring either. </p>
<p>(And to hark back to the other story, I didn’t make their lunches once they got into elementary school. They seem to eat what they make…)</p>
<p>I guess I’m impressed that there are all these children that are willing to let their parents help that much. I hope that doesn’t mean they blame the parents if things don’t go the way they want.</p>
<p>“For example, a 17-year-old would not use the word ‘relish’ except in reference to a condiment on a hotdog.”
Is anybody else offended by this remark?
A 17 year-old myself whom regards himself to have a very strong vocabulary, I feel as though I have had my intelligence insulted.
I also know of many high schoolers with such vocabularies.
I would like to know what sort of client base this woman has. In my estimation it is not likely of especially ambitious pretentions.</p>
<p>" “Sometimes I will use a sticky [note] that I attach to a letter of recommendation,” says Matthew Mumma, a counselor at Kahuku High and Intermediate School in Oahu. "On the sticky I might write, ‘Mom filled out the app’ or ‘Mom had three grades changed’ or ‘Watch out for Mom!’ “”</p>
<p>OK, this GC sounds downright hostile. First of all, how does he know whether mom filled out the application- did she tell him? Really… how many stealth-moms are going to actually admit this to a counselor who is so obviously anti-helicopter? </p>
<p>As far as the “Mom had three grades changed”… that is a very poor reflection on the school. Wow. WOW. If the grades were incorrect, they SHOULD be changed; if not, what kind of school goes around changing grades because of mom? Just thinking about that makes me want to wash my hands and spray the room down with an antibacterial. Yuck. Sounds like a very sleazy school.</p>
<p>And the “Watch out for Mom!” comment- if I found out that someone had put an ambiguous bomb like that in my kid’s file, I’d get an attorney, too. That’s just downright dirty.</p>
<p>That guy paints a really bad picture of GCs.</p>
<p>^I read that in a book recently too. Not sure if this person is making a point but I find that’s hard to believe. DD always believes her GCs at her school will do everything they can to increase the yield to college admission. She believes it’s good for the school statistics.</p>
<p>The guy sounds toxic. A loose cannon, perhaps even unstable. The “Watch out for Mom!” sticky note sounds creepy, sick, twisted. If I were a principal/headmaster, I wouldn’t want someone like that working for me. Very unprofessional behavior.</p>
<p>arettinger</p>
<p>I found the relish comment unlearned as well. I recently sent my son a care package and he said it was “toothsome”.</p>
<p>I know the “watch out for Mom” thing happens a lot with applicants to prep day and boarding schools. Overbearing and difficult parents get “noted” on the file. Frankly, I don’t have a problem with this. Why should a school take on a headache?</p>
<p>OK here’s what I keep thinking. My D used to use me for test study help, i.e. here Mom here’s my study guide read it to me and see what I know. For World Civ I could do it because at least I understood the words.</p>
<p>Fast forward to sophomore year in college and she’s taking Mol Bio and Neuroscience courses. She sent me her study guide and said, OK, quiz me. LOL I couldn’t even ASK A QUESTION the material was so far over my head.</p>
<p>And Princeton has an honor code which means she can’t ask for any editing help at all. Not that she did in high school.</p>
<p>I come down on the side of helping with the concepts of planning, being a sounding board for their ideas, good. Actually teaching them the material or altering their work, not so good. But then I paid a lot of money to send my kids to a school with small classes and good teachers so maybe it’s easy for me say? </p>
<p>Anyway, I tell both my kids the following. High school, I’m going to set the expectation that you get good grades, since you are highly capable. College? You are on your own in terms of performance. Support, of course. I love you and am glad to talk. But you get a B, fine, your choice. You have issues with the administration, you work it out unless I am called in. Because college, IMHO, is for learning about consequences, choices, self-direction, etc. as much as it is about learning about neurons and synapses and dendrites. (Those were the only words I understood from my D’s Neuroscience class :))</p>
<p>Just jumping in, but I agree that the counselor probably has no way to definitively know that the mom filled out the application. And no high school is going to allow Mom to change the grades unless the teacher and the principal give in to her, in which case the new grade is official and the GC should NOT mention it.
If someone sabatoged my kid in this way, I would do as mentioned above, and get a lawyer. This is just not fair to the kid.</p>