US News ranking of Washington U. at St. Louis

College Search & Selection
1

<p>My daughter has an interest in WUSTL, and has it on her short list. It was one school on the list that I knew had a good reputation, but that I knew less about than some of the others. I was told that US News ranked it as equal to Brown, better than Cornell, and that WUSTL students test scores match all top schools. I thought we should visit the school and learn more. </p>

<p>A few weeks ago, I took her to visit the school recently. It has a beautiful campus, the presentation was well executed and we were both impressed. </p>

<p>When we returned home, I began to compare WUSTL to other top schools that my daughter is considering in the US News and World Report Rankings, and a few things seemed odd to me about the ranking and supporting data.</p>

<p>The data indicate that the middle 50% of students have a SAT score (on a 1600 scale) of 1420 - 1560. I know that WUSTL is a good University, but I am surprised that 75% of their students score 1420 or higher. Not a single Ivy League school nor MIT nor Stanford (Ivies, M and S) claims that high of a 25%ile score. I went to the WUSTL website and found no information about the SAT scores reported in US News. </p>

<p>I then I read the methodology for the rankings which gave me the impression that US News obtains the data from the colleges, and if a number seems high, that US News goes back to the originator and asks them to confirm it instead of asking for an independent confirmation. That did not give me any confidence that the information was accurate, or that the ranking that was based on it was correct. </p>

<p>Then I checked the acceptance rate, which was reported as 17.9%, which is higher all of the Ivies, M and S. I also checked their yield which is around 30%, which is lower than most Ivies, M and S. That data seemed to support my initial thought that 1420 25%ile score that the ranking is based on seems likely to be incorrect.</p>

<p>Finally, I noticed that the two other schools that report even higher 25% scores (UofC and Cal Tech) both have reputations for being very quantitative. I did not think that WUSTL was very quantitative because the student that took us on the college tour there kept saying that "Numbers and me don't get along" and I believe that I was told that their most popular major was Social Science, which is not usually very quantitative.</p>

<p>I am new to this, so perhaps there is something that I do not understand. Can someone who is more knowledgeable offer their thoughts about this?</p>

<p>Much2learn</p>

<p>Is it possible that this was misreported? </p>

<p>It also seemed odd to me that they are ranked at number 14, when the highest ranking specific undergraduate major (Biomedical) was also ranked 14 and the others were lower.</p>

2

<p>Here is a subset of common data set information relating to WUStL admissions:
[Washington</a> University in St. Louis Admissions Information - CollegeData College Profile](<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1720]Washington”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1720)</p>

<p>Note, however, that adding the 25th percentile SAT CR and M scores does not necessarily give the 25th percentile SAT CR+M score.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, it seems like they don’t have the full common data set available, which would include percentages in each major.</p>

3

<p>I live in St. Louis and can confirm that it is an extremely competitive school. I’m not sure Social Science would be what I know them for so much as Pre-Med and their Medical School which are some of the top in the Nation. </p>

<p>One thing I will say is that here in Missouri students are far more likely to take the ACT rather than the SAT. For that reason, I don’t know if their scores for the SAT are actual scores or if they are the average scores for the ACT combined and normalized. </p>

<p>Either way, to come away with anything other than Washington Univ. being basically on par with the Ivies would be wrong - It is definitely on that level and admission is indeed extremely competitive.</p>

4

<p>We were very impressed after a recent visit as well. The student who answered our questions was a presidential scholar with 2400 SATs (child of a friend who offered to meet us apart from the tour and info session - which were also great, agree). I got a sense that the merit aid is pulling a lot of Ivy cross admit kids over to WUSTL. Perhaps that explains the unusual score distributions?</p>

5

<p>It could be that WashU puts more weight on SAT scores than other schools, and so ends up with higher scores.</p>

6

<p>

Part of the difference relates to WUSTL getting a larger portion of applicants from central states where ACT is dominant, while Ivies + M + S get a larger portion of their applicants from coastal states where SAT is dominant. The minority that submit SATs at WUSTL are more likely to be students who took both tests and submitted their best score, artificially inflating the SAT scores.</p>

<p>That said, their 25th percentile ACT is also high, so I’d expect another key factor is weighting test scores more than most other highly selective colleges and being less likely to let other sections of the app override poor test scores. Some colleges have enough 1600 M+V SAT applicants that they could fill their entire class with perfect scores, if they wanted to.</p>

7

<p>There were/are a small number of schools that have religiously avoided sharing information on a timely and accessible manner. A typical sign is the absence of the rather simole CDS. Schools such as Duke and Penn gave up and released the data. WUSTL and Chicago are clinging to their poor habits. </p>

<p>Draw your own conclusions but consider creative and whimsical reporting. And look for a massive grain of salt.</p>

8

<p>As I recall, based on the US News Underperformance/Overperformance information, WUSTL’s grad rate was less than you would expect by about 3% (given the SAT scores of the students who enroll there). This means either that WUSTL doesn’t do a very good job with the students it gets or that the SATs are inflated.</p>

<p>You tend to see grad rate underperformance at schools with a high percentage of STEM majors but I don’t think that applies at WUSTL.</p>

<p>And then there is Penn State where the grad rate overperformance is an enormous +17% or so. Has US News looked into that?</p>

9

<p>Thanks everyone for responding. Here are my observations/responses:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>ucbalumnus - It appears that the college data set data is also self reported by each college, so it does not confirm US News because the both got their data from the same source.</p></li>
<li><p>warblersrule - While I understand what you are saying. If you like it, go. However, there are a number of schools on the list that she liked that we are discussing, and I am trying to better understand the relative pros and cons of each. My concern about WUSTL is that in Finance and Computer Science majors, students may not be as strong or as well educated, and may have more limited access to internships, jobs compared to schools with stronger brands such as Penn, MIT, or Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Cornell and Michigan for example, all with well known business programs, and CS programs. In response, I was told that WUSTL is just as good as those I mentioned, and shown the US News ranking as evidence. Oddly, it was also suggested that WUSTL students are happier because the school is less demanding and less stressful compared to MIT or Penn. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I don’t see how they can teach you as much as MIT and Penn without being as demanding and stressful, so I began looking at the details to better understand what is true.</p>

<p>As I ask more people about it, and listen to more responses, my impression is that the WUSTL has:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Very good students who were perhaps rejected by Ivies, M and S, (based on 70% of accepted students going elsewhere) possibly due to comparatively weak grades or ECs. </p></li>
<li><p>Has a good reputation, but does not have the strength of reputation with employers of business graduates that Sloan or Wharton have. (Based on comments from several senior executives at investment firms.)</p></li>
<li><p>A significant student work load that is similar to the level of top schools, and that the students are not necessarily less stressed and happier than students at other top schools. (Based on their appearance in lists of most stressful colleges).</p></li>
<li><p>Avoided being detailed and transparent with their SAT and other admissions data in comparison to many other top schools, perhaps because they believe that disclosing it could be detrimental to them in some way. From that I have to conclude that I can not reasonably rely on the SAT range data and the related #14 National ranking in my assessment of the school, and conclude that they are probably overstated (xiggi’s “creative and whimsical reporting”.)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>What am I missing or incorrect about in this assessment so far?</p>

<p>Much2learn</p>

10

<p>Is WashU a good school? Yes
Has WashU climbed more than any other top-ranked school in the US News rankings? Yes
Has WashU used their massive endowment in ways to specifically climb the rankings? Yes
Is WashU a known back-up for the Ivies? Yes</p>

<p>Conclusion: WashU is a really good school that’s really tough to get in to, but it’s conscious manipulation of the rankings methodology makes people think that its ranking overstats its true quality. Make no mistake, it’s a quality school (definitely a Top 25), and you would dream about going to the med school. You should definitely go there if you like it, but their ranking should be taken with a grain of salt and is one of the reasons people complain about the rankings.</p>

11

<p>You are not wrong, most if not all of the schools you mention would be better than WashU for a Finance and CompSci double major. WashU has a known good business school but it doesn’t compare to most of those on the list, especially for East Coast employers, and few would rank WashU’s CompSci department among the top. (To save everyone the trouble, WashU’s grad school rankings are #21 Business and #39 CompSci.)</p>

<p>The question I always have about WashU is, how many people outside the Midwest make it their first choice, vs. it picking up everyone’s top-ranked castoffs. It’s a bit like Tufts in that regard.</p>

12

<p>Suppose US News has the perfect formula but it turns out that WUSTL’s numbers are incorrect. It really should be #18 instead of #14. Should that affect your decision to apply? Do you really believe all the surrounding rankings are that much more accurate?</p>

<p>On the other hand, suppose WUSTL is about rightly ranked even though it is less selective than the numbers suggest. So you get Tufts-like chances at Ivy-like status. Is that not a good thing? Think of it as a discount. An admissions fire sale.</p>

<p>It really is a good thing for you, because in fact some of the Ivies are even more selective than the numbers suggest. Consider all the slots their trustees make them reserve for development admits and oversexed Kennedy kids who cannot spell. To keep up the averages and class-crafting goals, the remaining places then go to homeless orphan URMs with perfect stats and amazing passions. If your kid is nothing more than an ordinary valedictorian, 10 points shy of 2400 and can’t even play the oboe, forget about the Ivies. Settle for WUSTL.</p>

13

<p>My son was accepted last year at WUSTL but decided to attend elsewhere. We visited the campus and were very impressed. In addition to the beautiful gothic buildings, the campus is in a very good location, bordering on both the bohemian and museum districts of STL. It also has amazing dorms (think condos) and campus food. WUSTL gives students free transportation passes. So they are competing on amenities. In my view, while the school is terrific in all areas, it is especially strong in pre-med given the top 5 med school and in other pre-professional areas.</p>

<p>I think the SATs are legit (son has 1540/2290) because the school focuses on getting students with high SAT scores and giving money to those students. My son’s FA offer from WUSTL was significantly higher than other schools. The downside is the school does not worry as much about socio-economic diversity or AA and thus is not as diverse as the Ivies (hence why WUSTL’s SATs are higher than Ivies at least in terms of the 25/75 medians).</p>

<p>My understanding is it does well with placement in grad schools and companies even though it is not noted for giving out high grades. Lots of research opportunities and interaction with faculty. </p>

<p>If you like WUSTL, I would by all means attend. I had hoped my son would attend, but he decided to go to school closer to home.</p>

14

<p>This is exactly the problem with U.S. News rankings. They are best used for general groupings, not exact rankings. It’s ridiculous to say that Wash U is objectively better than Cornell for everyone, much less that it is <em>exactly</em> two places better than Cornell.</p>

<p>collegehelp, 3% is probably within the margin of error and doesn’t mean a whole lot. It definitely does not mean that WUSTL doesn’t do a very good job with the students it gets. The graduation rate is 94% for chrissakes.</p>

<p>I don’t see how they can teach you as much as MIT and Penn without being as demanding and stressful</p>

<p>Why not? Stress and demand has much to do with teaching style and overall atmosphere, not content. Let’s say you have two environments. They both teach the same stuff, but in one environment the professors hold regular office hours, hold about 5 office hours per week, and are generally friendly and accessible to students. They assign mostly group projects, applied work projects, and encourage a lot of collaboration and helping. There are also more social events and the career office works hard to get most students internships. At the other place, professors mostly lecture and disappear after class; their office hours are only by appointment; and they refer students to their grad student for tutoring. They assign mostly individual projects and classes have lots of exams. The career center is excellent, but they don’t reach out to students, and students have to come on their own. Do you see how both schools could teach the exact same thing, but the students can be less stressed out at School A? (I’m not saying that this is what Wash U vs. MIT is. Just offering a hypothetical.)</p>

<p>College doesn’t HAVE to be demanding and stressful. I went to a fun, happy place and I’m in a top 5 Ivy League PhD program, and my college is one of the top 5 producers of PhDs in the social sciences (along with Reed and Swarthmore and higher than Harvard). I’ve TA’ed undergrad classes in my current university’s department, the same major I had in undergrad, and I definitely don’t think they learn more than I did as an undergrad in the same major at a less stressful school. In fact, my small LAC’s department had more breadth of classes (they don’t have classes in some common subfields of my field) and the students from my own school are definitely stronger writers than these kids.</p>

<p>Lists and rankings are usually a load of crock, because they rely on quantitative methodologies of things that aren’t easily quantified. Just because MIT is overall “more stressful” doesn’t mean that the school will be more stressful for YOUR CHILD. My university made the most stressful list and I’ve advised undergrads who were super-stressed type A and some undergrads who were just laid back and chill. (One of my most laid-back undergrads ended up choosing between Harvard and Stanford med, so laid-back doesn’t necessarily mean lazy. He just managed his workload well).</p>

<p>Maybe Wash U simply doesn’t believe in the rankings or doesn’t want to feed into this ridiculous obsession with numbers, so THAT’s why they don’t ahre their admissions data. You don’t have to conclude that it’s because they believe disclosing it can be detrimental in some way. Look at the actual pudding and not U.S. News stupid algorithm. Do Wash U students graduate? (Yes!) Is it a well-reputed school? Do they get jobs after college? Are they placed in the same firms that Ivy League students are despite having less name recognition? If yes, then stop worrying about miniscule differences.</p>

<p>What’s really important is that your daughter likes it, the campus is beautiful, she’s happy with it.</p>

15

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<p>This is dead wrong. The outcomes of learning has nothing to do with demanding and stress. “Being as demanding and stressful” does no guarantee of digesting and inquiring learning materials.</p>

16

<p>A school that covers the same content in one semester that another covers in two will be more demanding and stressful, other things being equal.</p>

17

<p>“Then I checked the acceptance rate, which was reported as 17.9%, which is higher all of the Ivies, M and S. I also checked their yield which is around 30%, which is lower than most Ivies, M and S. That data seemed to support my initial thought that 1420 25%ile score that the ranking is based on seems likely to be incorrect.”</p>

<p>You shouldn’t be surprised. There is a positive correlation between the yield rates of non-HYPSM top schools and emphasis on SAT scores. The greater the emphasis on SAT scores by a non-HYPSM top schools the more likely it is for that school to end up with a low yield. The students admitted to WashU with very high SAT scores are very likely to also be admitted to HYPSM causing WashU’s yield rate to be lower than expected for a top 15. This has been the case with Duke in recent years. </p>

<p>If WashU’s yield was somewhere around 50-60% I’d be more surprised.</p>

18

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<p>However, some students thrive better in more demanding courses, if the less demanding courses are too slow or too low level to keep them interested. After all, many students consider schools with demanding courses and curricula to be more desirable than the schools which admit and teach to the students with 2.5 HS GPA and 900 SAT CR+M.</p>

<p>Even at the same school, there may be more and less demanding courses. In high school, there may be the option of taking calculus AB or BC. Some colleges have a similar choice – the student can take a normal calculus 1 course in a semester, or a two semester sequence covering the same material as the normal calculus 1 course (Harvard is such a school – Math Ma and Mb are equivalent to Math 1a). In high school and college, there may also be the option of honors courses.</p>

19

<p>Have to disagree on Finance and Wash U…There are three top stock brokerages with their home offices in St. Louis (Wells Fargo, Edward Jones and ScottTrade with one or two smaller regional ones in town as well.). I get the impression the OP doesn’t like Washington University for one reason or another and that is fine, but to say it doesn’t have opportunities for Finance graduates is highly misinformed. Edward Jones is one of the largest stock brokerages in the nation and gets a large number of Washington University graduates and interns.</p>

20

<p>I do not have anything against WUSTL at all. I was pushing back because I felt like it was being over sold. </p>

<p>For the most part, you all are confirming what I was thinking. It not considered a peer of MIT and Penn for Business and Computer Science, but it is an excellent school, and if she ends up there, she should be very happy. </p>

<p>Thank you all. I appreciate the thoughtful input. It is very helpful to get the perspectives of others.</p>