@StanfordGSB00 appears to be using cross-admit data as a main criteria for ranking. No doubt revealed preference is correlated with correct perceptions of quality. But it’s also correlated with geographical preference and what’s popular at the time.
My criteria are a tad different as I look at research rankings, academic rigor of the undergraduate liberal arts program, and breadth of majors across the standard divisions. Using this criteria, UChicago tops Duke, Harvard and Yale in terms of overall rigor, tops Duke and is just ahead of Yale in terms of research strength, and tops MIT in non-STEM (despite the latter having a top-ranked economics and poly sci) and, notably, the humanities. Oh - and it tops Northwestern in everything as well in cross-admit data LOL. The reason I’d place UChicago ahead of Columbia is that the Chicago core is more comprehensive. I don’t actually know whether UChicago is more “rigorous” than either Princeton’s or Stanford’s liberal arts programs so let’s call that a tie. Because those two schools are research powerhouses I think they both ultimately top UChicago according to my criteria.
But this is splitting hairs, as pretty much anyone graduating from any of the above will have excellent prospects intellectually (to the extent they desire that) as well as professionally. At that level of selectivity, it’s really more about fit - and having those Plans B - D.
@JBStillFlying - in terms of “public perception” and “popular culture” - I would say that U Chicago is the least well known school among the top 10. Could you suggest another school in the T10 that is less well known to the public? The only other contender would be UPenn but I would argue that Wharton’s brand is up there with HYPSM. This should count for something because a lot of people (including employers) aren’t relying on US News rankings to make decisions. And regarding UChicago’s academic prowess, there are some areas where it isn’t that strong. You state that it beats NU in everything? Really?? Hmm…let’s take a look:
Some other disciplines - Journalism, Communications, Music and Education - NU is top 5 or top 10. And UChicago doesn’t compete here.
*This will continue to play a major role in the future of all of these universities - financial aid, capital investments, attracting and retaining the best faculty, research grants, etc. There is a reason why HYPSM continue to dominate b/c they have the largest endowments by far.
Gosh, I hope not, since such info is not data at all. Its just a bunch of self-reported anecdotes, and as any AP Stats student can tell you, a collection of anecdotes is anything but “data”.
@bluebayou - see above. Those are certainly numbers (although not the type of numbers Chicago enthusiasts like to acknowledge).
And if we want to talk about cross-admits, I think we should also think about how Chicago’s use of an EA round, 2 ED rounds and the use of test optional policies affect cross-admits, its yield and its reported “stats.” Perhaps it could release a common data set ? Will that ever happen? Probably not…
"in terms of “public perception” and “popular culture” - I would say that U Chicago is the least well known school among the top 10. Could you suggest another school in the T10 that is less well known to the public? "
Irrelevant question.
“And regarding UChicago’s academic prowess, there are some areas where it isn’t that strong. You state that it beats NU in everything? Really??”
“Engineering - should we even go there? UChicago doesn’t compete here…”
“Some other disciplines - Journalism, Communications, Music and Education - NU is top 5 or top 10. And UChicago doesn’t compete here.”
Both points are irrelevant as I noted liberal arts rigor. NU obviously offers a variety of non-liberal arts majors, but its largest college is Weinberg. While excellent, it's not the same as UChicago, nor do the students generally have the same level of intellectual inquiry.
Other than what StanfordGSB stated, I would also add that NU has more research funding. No one questions Chicago isn’t above NU overall here so I don’t understand why someone feels the need to exaggerate that it “beats NU in everything”.
Chicago is a solid top 10 school, but few outside of Chicago circles believe it belongs in the top 5. Just look at any other rankings (WSJ, Niche, Forbes, etc.), and they all rank Chicago outside the top 10. Also, Chicago simply cannot compete with HYPSM on endowment/spending (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment). PA scores in the latest US News also below the likes of Hopkins and Berkeley…
^ UChicago’s lack of significant endowment will no doubt hinder its ability to compete effectively. This is a standout problem for the university and it impacts more than just the College . . .
In Harvard’s defense, there are houses in Woodlawn named after class of 2021 and class of 2022 parents. Probably a building with the Gates’ name on it in the works. And class of 2023 parents asking online whether a laundry service will pick up their kids’ laundry from dorm rooms, or whether their kids will have to drop the laundry off for staff to wash it.
With a lovely glass house going up all around, I’m hesitant to throw stones.
Oxford
California Institute of Technology
Cambridge
Stanford
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Princeton
Harvard
Yale
Chicago
Imperial College London
About half of the metrics by which USNews ranks colleges are tied to the wealth of their students, such as, SAT/ACT scores (with multiple courses promising a 200 point increase for $3,000), graduation and retention (most students who drop out do so for financial reasons), and alumni giving index. That counts for 42.5% of their scores. Then there is the wealth that is available to the college, which also is directly related to the wealth of the students and alumni, which counts for another 30% of their scores. So by now, we have 72.5% of the score which is little but a set of wealth indicators.
Then there is the 20% of “reputation”. Since “reputation” again is strongly related to the connections of the college’s alumni, once again, wealth and power determine much of this metric.
Oh, I forgot, 5% measures “social mobility”. That makes USNews positively social justice advocates and activists, no?
PS. I’m not saying that any college that is highly ranked by USNews is bad. I’m saying that their particular ranking system does not rank what they claim it ranks.
@JBStillFlying
Even in liberal arts, UChicago isn’t better in “everything”. How do you define better in the first place? Did you take classes and spend a lot of time at both places to make such claim? What about teaching? Do liberal arts students not watch football game? If you are talking about rankings, Northwestern’s chemistry is ranked higher for example. Art history is probably “better” too. There are no MMSS or ISP majors in UoC. I also wouldn’t call NU’s various offerings as “irrelevant” because Weinberg students can take classes in communications, music, education and engineering schools and enjoy quality productions from the music/theatre students. There’s diversity that uoc simply doesn’t have. Last I checked, NU is also ranked higher in WSJ and Niche rankings.
@IWannaHelp , you’re not allowing for a certain perennial trope in play between the U of C and Northwestern, not unlike that between the U of Texas and A & M or the Red Sox and the Yankees, under which each disses the other outrageously with a certain comic effect intended. The last time I was at Second City someone did a riff on NU and U of C along these lines (I remember something about an NU student looking for an island when he got off the Metra at 63rd and Stony Island), and in Texas Aggie jokes of the “how many does it take to screw in a bulb” are the coin of the realm, and even Aggies laugh at them. @JBStillFlying 's little jibe I take as being from that playbook, even if not quite a side-splitter. You may be missing the joke.
As least with US News, aren’t many of these schools converging? Lots of ties, for instance. So wouldn’t a better way to assess “quality” be to think of them as “tiers” rather than a strict ranking? How many get into more than one of Princeton/Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Chicago/MIT? Not many. But a larger number do get into one of those AND Columbia/Penn/Cornell/JHU/NU. And of course, a good number specify that latter group as a first choice as well, although sometimes it’s because the applicant is taking advantage of better paper chances due to the ED.
UChicago might well be revealing how it views its own place in the rankings, at least in terms of student preference. The ED1 estimated applicant pool and admit numbers rival the SCEA’s and approach MIT’s EA round. The ED2 pool very likely applied somewhere else in the early round so UChicago is more of a “backup” - or at least another school was tied. To me, that reveals that the College puts itself as not quite HYPS (tier 1) and not quite Columbia/Penn/Cornell/JHU/NU (tier 2) - at least in terms of “prestige.” Those who have criticized the impact on yield from aggressive use of ED have somewhat of a point; however, yield on the non-binding pools are pretty high as well. In fact, the point has been made earlier that had UChicago simply stuck with EA, they may well be looking at yields north of 70%, although one can make the counter point that snagging full pay ED’s allows them to go after the non-bindings with great merit aid which, in turn, pushes up those yields. And, of course, the use of merit to push up yield is another way to signal that they don’t view themselves in the HYPS sphere yet.
@IWannaHelp - sorry you are still confused. By “everything” is meant 100% of the criteria I set. And to answer some of your questions, and with all due respect to @Marlowe1 - I am familiar with the student body of NU, both undergrad and professional schools, the undergraduate student culture, and faculty who have taught at both UChicago and NU and understand well the level of student engagement in the subjects they were teaching. There is a difference - or was, not that long ago. NU has a LOT to offer and has a different feel from UChicago for several reasons, including those you mention (ie the ability to access other colleges and programs of study). Liberal arts is only one of many reasons students spark to the place. It’s a great school and was one of my son’s Plan B’s. But he also knew from experience and talking to others who knew both schools quite well that UChicago was intellectually a better fit for him, even though it meant he couldn’t pursue his music as seriously as he had been doing. Hard choices.
As to the “joke”, back in the day when I used to live and work in the area, UChicago was “that egghead place” and all the cool kids went to NU. I hope it’s still that way All jokes are rooted in a truth.
UChicago is definitely not ahead of Columbia and Penn. There is just no truth to that, regarding research output, overall reputation, avg. department strength across disciplines, etc. That is just a fantasy world you’re living in, if you think that’s the case. On the coasts, in NY, Boston, D.C., SF and LA, if you want to talk about reputation, Columbia and Penn >> Chicago in terms of overall reputation.
All jokes are rooted in a truth.