<p>US students far from first in math, science</p>
<p>Study: US fourth-graders make strides, but progress elusive at eighth-grade level</p>
<p>US</a> students far from first in math, science - Yahoo! News</p>
<p>Surprise! Not. America has this huge weird problem with mathphobia. (And I’m no stranger to it myself) EVERYONE (including me) says “I’m not good at math.” Surely that’s a factor into it?</p>
<p>The thing about math is that you can’t BS it. You have to actually work to become better. If American kids did as much homework as kids in other developed nations did, we would definitely see improvements. (Clearly that’s not all of it, but it is also a large factor too)</p>
<p>I would still like to see an apples to apples comparison of this data. When kids that can’t even talk or feed themselves are expected to take these tests it skews the data some don’t you think?? Look at the several states that are outperforming other nations, is is a wonder they come in at the top of pretty much every measurement for education in our country? A lot comes down to attitude about education. Looking at some states, you hear people here and on other boards talk about how they have high GPA’s, yet consistently score low on ACT/SAT “because they don’t test well”–well your whole STATE doesn’t test well then because you have an average ACT score of 19 or worse–but that 4.0 is a great thing…</p>
<p>Until we address the issue behind students not performing in the classroom, nothing will change…</p>
<p>Yahoo has nothing better to report on? I’m sure this has only been written about A MILLION TIMES already…</p>
<p>This type of comparison is difficult because the educational systems throughout the world vary greatly.</p>
<p>Here is an article from yesterday’s Boston Globe that indicates 8th grade students in Massachusetts outperformed most countries in an international Math and Science test.</p>
<p>[Mass</a>. garners high marks on key international exam - News - Boston.com](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2012/12/11/mass-garners-high-marks-key-international-exam/2KuImLkhf2Wxr52hOZdJjN/story.html]Mass”>http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2012/12/11/mass-garners-high-marks-key-international-exam/2KuImLkhf2Wxr52hOZdJjN/story.html)</p>
<p>So what?..</p>
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And it’s acceptable to say that you are basically math illiterate. People are embarrassed to admit that they cannot read and write. In fact they often go through their lives hiding it and functioning on the margins. Would that we were comparably embarrassed by our inability to add fractions!</p>
<p>“I would still like to see an apples to apples comparison of this data. When kids that can’t even talk or feed themselves are expected to take these tests it skews the data some don’t you think??”</p>
<p>Good point. The USA has very broad educational opportunities. Many kids from very troubling circumstances still get into school . . . and get tested. there are millions of kids in the world that never get to school (or much school) and never get tested.</p>
<p>America’s top kids are as good as any in the world in math and Science - many of them have parents or grandparents that have come from all over the world.</p>
<p>Pretty interesting information on MA - thanks. I think that MCAS had a lot to do with it - too bad that it’s going away. MA does have some really horrible school districts too and that they did very well on international comparisons is impressive.</p>
<p>-- why would we EXPECT to be the best? Or even among the best? Is it because we THINK we’re the best in other areas? Could it be that we swallowed the “America is the greatest country in the world” bs? We neither invest in education, nor treat it terribly seriously. Our teachers aren’t trained well, and aren’t paid well either. We have no national curriculum, and very weak national standards. The level of education at each given school, in each given town, can vary greatly. The wealthy get good schools, the rest of us have to fend for ourselves. The results speak for themselves. We have the educational accomplishments we deserve.</p>
<p>When i lived with my family in Europe, we found that in many countries students who recieved extremely high test results in the 4-6th grades were allowed to continue College prepatory education. The rest went on to apprenticeships and tech training. So, only the extremely intelligent students were the one in high school. So, obivously the schools had a test average that was out of this world. Of course America has many educational problems but still i think that is something worth noting</p>
<p>Actually we spend more than any country per pupil other than Luxembourg.</p>
<p>We are training students for the jobs of the future. 18 of the 20 fastest growing jobs (in numbers) in the next decade according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics don’t require a college degree, and many not a high school diploma. Think WalMart clerk. Schools are great at producing what we need, and are a tremendous success story. Why change something that is working so well?</p>
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<p>I don’t think it is a matter of homework. I think it is a matter of time in school.</p>
<p>Looking at the Data, MA and MN top the nation in math/science…MN tops the nation in ACT and SAT scores overall and ACT for states where large numbers take the ACT, MA tops the nation in SAT in states where large numbers take the SAT…</p>
<p>It isn’t homework or time, it’s the students that are being tested. If we took the top 10% of our students or even the top 50% of our students and compared them to the top 10 or 50 % of the other countries–you know, the students 100% of our students are being compared to, the numbers would look a LOT different. Just look at the difference between the standings when you go with the top 2 states in the nation for education–even with ALL of their students being tested.</p>
<p>Why would we want to see so-called “improvements”? We’ve got a huge surplus of math/science graduates as it is - all it would do is depress wages further. The schools are doing what they need to do, and a firm grip on our future.</p>
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<p>I could not agree more. We have the education we deserve and allowed to become what it is by gross indifference. When negative results pile up, we prefer to look for excuses --like this thread will demonstrate for the nth time-- and blame the tests. Anything will be better than looking at the basic problem that affect our education system. </p>
<p>Despite our spending levels being at or near the top, we will pretend that more money is needed … as opposed to analyze why so much is spent. We will get to the simplistic view that teachers in “general” should be paid more, as opposed to look at more progressive ways to reward the well-educated and well-trained. Those discussions are usually viewed as attacks to the teaching profession when they are really meant to … support the teachers who deserve a better system. Simply stated, the current system is built to protect the underperforming, the non-specialized teachers, the masses that were produced by garbage programs targeting the weaker candidates, or the downright abuser who sees teaching as a sinecure. Little wonder so many quit after 5 years. </p>
<p>We love to complain about the tests or complain how teachers do teach the tests. And parents and observers are right, but that does not address why this happens. Testing the teachers on the material they should be able to teach might be a lot quicker and cheaper than measuring the kids. But then again, the system will let the failed ones try and try again until they get lucky and pass. </p>
<p>What our teachers (and all of us) deserve is a system that promotes respect and (re)establishes the profession as one of the most sought-after jobs. Paying the teachers well should ensure a supply of teachers who will need to have matching qualifications. Eliminating the frivolous expenses and slashing administrative costs will unlock piles of money to be redirected at the core of our education system. Our system hardly allows for raising salaries of teachers but we find way to build 40,000,000 barns for the bus system, and fortunes for football stadiums (as Allen ISD in Texas did.) </p>
<p>A cynic like Mini is correct that the system delivers what it is supposed to do. A small elite of well-educated students and a sea of Walmart workers who only understand R as in rebate, and hardly any of the typical three Rs of education. </p>
<p>We DO deserve better. But it starts by understading how terrible we really are.</p>
<p>I don’t think I’m being cynical. A school system is supposed to produce what the society of the future is in need of. Now if you want to be a radical social engineer, that’s fine with me. Just make sure you understand what you are doing. More and more math and science students chasing fewer and fewer jobs, with many of those jobs shipped abroad, is just a recipe for social unrest, and doesn’t serve anyone.</p>
<p>We need to start by understanding just how tremendously successful the current system of public education is, which is why it doesn’t change. 80% of Americans think their own local public school system is just fine, thank you. Then, if you wish, like me, you can specify your radical social engineering goals, and figure out how to get there.</p>
<p>Mine would be to produce more poets, saxophonists, self-sufficient gardeners, brewers of their own beer, foster parents, choral singers, garage tinkerers, recyclers, keepers of cultural traditions, mentors, meditators, mediators, stream-protectors, doulas, nurses, hospice volunteers, and world changers. Definitely NOT more people pursuing science and math careers. I’m pretty sure I can’t get there through radical social engineering in schools, but I’m willing to be convinced.</p>
<p>Katlia and Xiggi nailed it if you ask me.</p>
<p>Until we realize that other nations want it more than we do, and make adjustments to our system, we will continue to languish behind. Kids who go to school year-round or go to school for 8 hours per day vs 6.5 are going to learn more. It is as simple as that. There is an old saying that “it is easier to get to the top than to stay on top”, that is because success breeds complacency and laziness. </p>
<p>The 2nd thing we need to do is make learning something that will benefit a person in the long run. Not to make this political, but why put the effort into learning if there is no incentive and you will get taken care of anyway. Make learning worthwhile again and scores will go up.</p>
<p>Malcolm Gladwell in his book “Outliers” offers an interesting hypothesis as to why Asians are better at math.</p>
<p>Here is an excerpt from his book:</p>
<p>[gladwell</a> dot com - rice paddies and math tests](<a href=“http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outliers_excerpt3.html]gladwell”>http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outliers_excerpt3.html)</p>
<p>An interesting snippet:</p>
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