<p>Bluebayou: Maybe I should be a bull, rather than a bear......</p>
<p>Last year the GC cautioned my kid's class (at private school) that they could no longer consider USC as a saftey school, as it had been regarded for many years (guess it was prob safety for those not getting into Stanford or UCLA.)</p>
<p>Still USC has a solid reputation, and certainly some departments (like communications) are highly regarded. The Hollywood alumni network is famous too.</p>
<p>"So my parents think the price is a rip-off for a non ivy league school." This is a typical overseas view, only Ivy's worth it etc. Price of school is not based on if it is Ivy or not. Since colleges are nonprofit price is based on cost to run the school less the amount that cost is subsidized (by the state, the endowment, etc.)</p>
<p>It is always a mistake not to apply for financial and merit aid. Instead of the school deciding if they can give you something, you've decided to take nothing.</p>
<p>I didn't applied for any financial and merit aid because I was told that it would affect the chance for any international students (Even the top-notch ones going to the Ivys)</p>
<p>But anyone know how social sciences are in USC?</p>
<p>It depends on each school if the financial aid and merit affects chances for internationals. For many schools it no longer does.</p>
<p>TheDad ~ I read your comments with interest. I think UCLA is an excellent school; I was accepted at UCLA as an undergrad, but went to USC instead, because the chemical engineering program at USC was so much better at the time, which has very little relevance to today.</p>
<p>But I would suggest that perhaps you should have mentioned to the OP that your wife works at UCLA...loyalty is hard to set aside some times.</p>
<p>I also have a degree from the UC (Davis in this case) and I no longer live in SoCal, so these cross-town rivalries don't affect me too much. This probably explains why I did not know about the Walton expose that BlueBayou noted.</p>
<p>But I did make a trip to see five SoCal colleges a few months ago, and for what it's worth, I still think USC is a hugely successful institution. Two things our party did at all of the schools we visited: we spent a good deal of time in the campus bookstores, browsing in the textbook sections to get a feel for the challenge level of the material being taught (especially undergrad courses). And we spent some time talking to regular students on the campus, selected at random. These two factors (admittedly these are totally un-scientific) caused USC to move up dramtically in the opinion of the kids, and definitely worked against the other schools we visited (except for CalTech, whcih did well on these tests too).</p>
<p>My hs junior S, who previously had MIT, CalTech, and Stanford on his list, now also has USC on the list as a result of visiting the school. Also, USC has always been very friendly to international students, although I can't say what the FA picture might be for internationals.</p>
<p>If you want to hear what happened when we visited UCLA (comedy of errors!), shoot me an email and I'll fill you in.</p>
<p>OP:</p>
<p>USC is ranked #30 in the USNWR, which is about where my gut feel would place it. Regardless of what folks feel about USNWR, it is what it is. IMO, there is little difference in the reputation of any school +/- 5 spots...in this case, 25-35. That would place 'SC in a class with Georgetown and UCLA (tied for #25), Wake Forest, Tufts, and UNC-Chapel Hill, as well as William and Mary (#31), Brandeis, NYU, Wisconsin-Madison, and Case Western. Each of those schools will have programs that the other does not, and each will have programs that are better than other similar schools. However, IMO, they ALL have similar academic reputations, which are excellent. But, absolutely not as good as Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and the other so-called top 10. More importantly, for some kids, USC would be a better fit than Harvard.</p>
<p>Exactly. Not the top, but a good program and rising in quality and reputation. A lot depends on the major which is under consideration.</p>
<p>Son's one visit to UCLA was wonderful. It was his second college audition and he was still nervous about the audition process. As a USC grad I must admit my heart palpitations and jittery hands made me wonder how I could ever let my son even apply. But-the people at the school of music were some of the most wonderful people we have ever met. Son would probably have jumped at a chance to attend a funeral as an excuse to avoid the audition. The process was well run. The people who auditioned son were outrageously helpful and very complimentary. I feel UCLA gave me my son back. The students were kind and helpful, a gorgeous redhead student was listening at the door-she looked up son's name so she could say "good job name." instead of just "good job". UCLA now has a little bit of my heart.</p>
<p>RD, your point is reasonable but not germane: my opinion of USC's academics is not founded on premises rooted in rivalry.</p>
<p>I gather datapoints from many directions and look for consistency/inconsistency. Wrt USC's academics--outside of certain departments--the picture is remarkably consistent.</p>
<p>1) Profs who teach or have taught there, comparing the academic atmosphere to other places they have taught, ranging from top LAC's to top state schools. </p>
<p>2) Hiring professionals without USC degrees who interview USC grads. The undergrad USC business degree has come in for special condemnation...oddly enough, see point 4 below.</p>
<p>2) A bit of quiet and passive content analysis: lurk when USC students are asked what they like best about the school. I have never seen academics mentioned first, rarely mentioned in the top three, and often not mentioned at all. If you break radio silence and query students on this point, you will often get replies to the effect that they're not monks and nuns and in general a gamut of replies running from defensive to ridiculous.</p>
<p>4) Serendipity is a wonderful thing. Someone mentioned a student review site in another thread and I thought I'd take a look. The indivdiual comments about USC academics were pretty negative, especially so for the undergrad business program.</p>
<p>Okay--I'll stipulate that as an <em>absolute</em> statistical matter, one needs to take the ratings with a grain of salt, just as one needs to take USNews with a manure spreader. However, the <em>relative</em> numbers were interesting. If you can come up with a defensible paradigm where USC's ratings would be unfairly worse than those of other schools, I'd like to hear it. As for Academic Quality, I took a look at the numbers for four top California schools: data follows with school, rating, and N=number of respondents.</p>
<p>Stanford 8.1 47
UCLA 8.1 60
UC Berkeley 8.0 93
USC 6.8 101</p>
<p>As I said in my first comment, I think President Sample is trying to pull the institution in the right direction and they've got a lavish endowment that they're spending wisely. But the on-campus academic culture isn't "there" yet. Which might explain why some either try to change the subject or get defensive.</p>
<p>For a few certain majors, I'd absolutely counsel a high school student to consider USC strongly. But that's due to strength of individual program.</p>
<p>TheDad ~ I'm interested in your views. You're on the ground out there and I'm back in the East, so you have a chance to talk to USC faculty, and I don't. But, I will say it's ironic if the USC business school is in trouble, as this is the school that has been preparing the NPR daily summaries of what's going on each day in the business world for national distibution. I'm always surprised to hear USC as the source of business news on the radio in the nation's capital, rather than Harvard or Wharton, which are much better known.</p>
<p>Where did the Academic Quality ratings you gave come from? Who provided them, students or faculty?</p>
<p>I agree with you that the USNWR conclusions are always suspect, but the underlying data are sourced directly from the colleges and are interesting. If you rank the top ten colleges in California by incoming SAT midpoint (yeah, I know, it's the SAT...but as Xiggi says, it's the test we have...), then you get this ranking for California universities:</p>
<ol>
<li>Cal Tech 1570</li>
<li>Stanford 1450</li>
<li>USC 1335</li>
<li>Berkeley 1315</li>
<li>UCLA 1285</li>
<li>UCSD 1255</li>
<li>Pepperdine 1195</li>
<li>UCI 1191</li>
<li>UCD 1190</li>
<li>UCSB 1190</li>
</ol>
<p>If you repeat for student/teacher ratio, you find again that USC is third, after Stanford and Cal Tech, with Pepperdine fourth and all of the others much lower.</p>
<p>Before you UC parents out there flame me, let me just restate my premise: USC is already a great school, and is getting better. A good argument can be made that it is the third best university in California, a state with many really fine schools.</p>
<p>Now if there's some third party, objective data that contradicts this picture, I'm open to it. Lay it out there. For example, I'm wondering what the average starting salaries are for graduates of the various California colleges, but haven't seen the info anywhere. And what fraction of graduating undergrads go on to grad school? I can't do the same CA top ten for the grad school numbers, but Harvard is 24%, USC is 28%, and Stanford is 31%, which does not seem to signal that USC is a school with the serious problems you suggest.</p>
<p>And again, I agree that the particular major under consideration is vital in determining quality of any program.</p>
<p>By the way, USC's endowment is new (they had next to nothing forty years ago, and a run-down, dangerous campus to boot). Rebuilding the campus from scratch in the heart of LA, while creating a $billion+ endowment from alumni gifts again demonstrates the trend line for USC: consistent improvement.</p>
<p>reasonabledad, the UCs only count one sitting;therefore, the SAT scores for these schools are understated. There are also other reasons why, but I don't feel like getting into it.
I am also in California, and the stronger students go to Berkeley and UCLA over USC overall.
I think USC is a fine school and if I feel like paying the money, my son will probably look at it. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.sonicpixel.net/ahs04/%5B/url%5D">http://www.sonicpixel.net/ahs04/</a>
Click on any school.
This is a large public school in Southern California.</p>
<p>RD, those Academic ratings were assessment by students on the site mentioned in another thread...I'm wary of re-posting it here, since it seems to skirt the TOS. </p>
<p>Wrt USC's business school, the <em>graduate</em> program is a different ball of wax and much more respected and respectable. In fact, I'd rate of most of USC's graduate programs more highly than their undergrad, on both absolute and relative scales.</p>
<p>Dstark's point about the SAT differential bears consideration.</p>
<p>And yet again, I won't argue about Sample's efforts and the money spent. The campus academic culture is another matter.
Comparing the student reviews of USC to those of some other schools is interesting.... And yet again, even passive content analysis yields some interesting observations.</p>
<p>First of all those SAT scores are way old, Berkeley last year was 1350, LA 1346, USC 1353. Combine these numbers with dstark's point about the UC's only using single-sitting, and it doesn't look like USC is beating Cal/UCLA on those grounds. </p>
<p>Last year I was a SoCal High School senior applying to colleges. TheDad is right on this one. The vibe of the school just isn't academic, even though it certainly gets good students. UCLA's best students come because it's UCLA. USC's best students come because it buys them. </p>
<p>Despite this, I do think that USC will very likely weasel its way into the upper level one day. I see it becoming the west coast Duke, there are lots of parallels: un-academic reputation, very good sports, frats, money......</p>
<p>USC is NOT comparable to Duke</p>
<p>that sullies Duke's good name</p>
<p>Duke has red hot academics along with a lot of fun</p>
<p>USC has.......mediocre academics with rich drunk kids leading the amusement</p>
<p>don't forget that USC stands for</p>
<p>University of Second Choice(UCLA rejects)</p>
<p>and </p>
<p>University of Spoiled Children</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, USC did try to "recruit" me by sending me a whole lot of info. I consider myself a "strong" applicant(I know that reeks of arrogance and I detest arrogance, but still, why would USC have tried to recruit me)</p>
<p>That said, I would not waste 4 years of my life at USC even if I got a full ride in the honors program. It is simply a bad school trying to gloss itself up. Nothing like Duke!!!</p>
<p>Grad programs are better than undergrad though so, at least grad programs are ok. undergrad education is dismal!!!</p>
<p>the alumni network and enthusiasm is usc's sole selling point, while it is good to have connections, I would prefer to make it on my own rather than rely on alumni to hire me and thus propagate the business "incest" that goes on. that may have been too strong of a word but its connotations reflect my disgust at having alums hire other alums who hire other alums who just form their own snobby preppy circle</p>
<p>and so.....</p>
<p>Let the flaming begin :)</p>
<p>lol, I always enjoy a lively discussion!!!</p>
<p>What are the good undergrad programs in USC then?</p>
<p>film is a very good undergrad program and very selective</p>
<p>Sepiterms response would have been the typical reply for questions on USC. Obviously things have changed at USC and people including those on CC are beginning to recognize the changes. </p>
<p>Are there rich kids there? Yes. But many schools have rich kids, and USC does any excellent job in using the huge amount of money it has to support kids from a wide variety of economic backgrounds. Are the programs mediocre? Some are, but that's true of any college, and indeed some of its programs are world class. Is it expensive? Indeed, but no more so that lots of other private schools. Is it conservative? Many of the students are, but based on my son's activities in the Trojan Horse newspaper and organizing against the war (the upcoming rally is being supported by student activity fees) USC does have a liberal/leftist presence. Are the Greeks too powerful? My son is annoyed by them, and especially some of their themed racist parties, but they are easily ignored. Getting a girlfriend (BTW, the child of two Baptist ministers, hardly a rich kid), and lots of other friends who are involvied in political activism, has made fraternities irrelevant. </p>
<p>My son went to USC for film. He was also accepted to UVA (our state school) and UNC. Had he not gotten into film, I doubt we would have sent him there two years ago. But two years from now, based on the University's growing reputation, who knows what we would have done. The school is rolling in money, and using it to attract world class faculty and students. It has an aggressive president who has dragged the school into the top ranks, and supportive alumni and friends who are bankrolling the schools climb up the academic ladder. It has a beautiful campus and seemingly happy students. </p>
<p>We are very pleased. My son has grown socially and intellectually. So far it has been worth the money.</p>
<p>Is it as good as Duke? Not yet. But soon.</p>
<p>BigBrother ~ it may be that the SAT scores I reported are not correct...but I used the 2005 USNews data...so I'm not sure how that could be so.</p>
<p>I see a lot of passion against USC, and frankly the two things that seem to unite the offerings is a lack of hard, 3rd party data, and that all of the protestors have strong connections to either UCLA or Cal...have you noticed that there are no partisans from Stanford objecting to USC as the number three college in California?</p>
<p>These issues of college quality are all open to interpretation, but the objective data that I have access to don't support a vision of USC being in trouble, at least from 2,000 miles away. But I admit that you guys are all on the ground out there, and maybe I'm just reading the information poorly...Baing on the local ground does count, and is meaningful.</p>
<p>TheDad, you asked if there was some sort of statistically valid reason why faculty who have taught at several good colleges would have more negative views of USC than of other good California schools (at least that is how I interpreted your question). The answer is yes, I can think of a couple of good reasons why you might get this feedback, even if it was not representative of "truth" (a slippery concept).</p>
<ol>
<li><p>In speaking with academics, I think that professors are, as a group, more liberal than the rest of the population. Without falling into the trap of discussing whether this is good or bad, the general fact remains that USC is much more conservative, and much more business and engineering oriented than most universities. Would this impact the assessment of a largely liberal group pf professional educators? It's possible, at least. If this happened, I can suppose that one of the key complaints of faculty would be USC's lack of the "on-campus academic culture" that they experience at other schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Again looking at 3rd party, objective data (at least I hope this is objective), there is another thing that distinguishes USC faculty from their peers at similar top colleges in SoCal. USC relies much more heavily on part-time faculty, often drawn from the business and research functions of the SoCal area. For comparison, part time faculty are the following fraction of the total:</p></li>
<li><p>Stanford 2.2%</p></li>
<li><p>Cal Tech 10%</p></li>
<li><p>UCSD 18%</p></li>
<li><p>Berkeley 22%</p></li>
<li><p>UCLA 24%</p></li>
<li><p>USC 38%</p></li>
</ol>
<p>USC's faculty hiring practices inherently create a large pool of "faculty" who were good enough to be hired at USC, but not good enough to be retained at USC. Furthermore, these numbers highlight the fact that USC's faculty is "tainted" to many minds with excessive numbers of qualified PhD's who are equally at home in the private sector, and relatively deficient in the left-Liberal worldview.</p>
<p>This analysis may not be right. Perhaps the USC faculty just aren't as good as they need to be. But in terms of verifiable facts that I can put my hands on, I find this outline pretty plausible.</p>
<p>Here's a gut check for those of you in SoCal: ask yourself what would have happened to Ward Churchill if he had been a USC professor. I suggest two answers come to mind: </p>
<ol>
<li>Impossible to envision as USC does not hire such Liberal-left professors (they probably do, but in smaller numbers).</li>
<li>They'd have fired him at once, under immense pressure from the alumni, who tend to be strongly of the conservative republican worldview.</li>
</ol>
<p>I think this illustrates my point about why there might be a large pool of uncomplimentary faculty (some current, and some past) for TheDad to talk to in SoCal.</p>
<p>Dstark ~ Do you know the gap that results from "one-sitting" vs best of each score? I don't know, except to say that for my son, it is 30 points. On average, perhaps this gap is enough to bring the UCs closer to USC, but I just don't know. Most kids take the test once, anyway, so it takes a big, big gap to close a 50 point average difference. If the CB published the gap data, I'd be interested! Also, thank you for the link you provided, but I was not clear whether I was seeing evidence that UC is the most popular school (which I certainly ackowledge, being a UC graduate myself), or whether I was seeing evidence that the best students prefer UC over USC...also, was it applications, admissions, cross-admissions, or what? Perhaps you could elaborate on the link a bit.</p>
<p>Since USC is more expensive that any UC for a California kid, it would not be too meaningful to say that the UCs are better than USC simply because more local kids go there...sort of like saying that the University of Pittsburgh trumps Wharton on the same basis...apples and oranges I think.</p>
<p>Does anyone know of cross admission data for out of state applicants to California colleges, normed for financial resources? I've never seen this sort of thing, but I sure would like to see it!</p>
<p>I really think that you are overstating the politics. Moreover, I think that USC's reputation is as much as an artsy school, film, music, acting, fine arts, as a business/engineering institution.</p>