USMA versus ROTC

Colleges and Universities A-Z Military Academy - West Point
1

<p>My son is applying to West Point - he has two nominations(House and Senate), was in the 90th percentile on all of his PAE tests, very good grades, SAT's above 1300, Varsity Hockey and Lacrosse, President of several clubs, math tutoring job, great recommendations, Secretary of Honor Society, etc. The Admissions Officer for our region has done nothing to keep us informed in any way, shape or form. My son spoke to him several months ago and all he could do was discourage my son - "you come from a very populated area, very difficult to get in . . ., blah, blah, blah". We didn't expect this officer to say, "yes, you're definitely in" but I would think part of his role is to keep the applicants interested. Just the opposite. </p>

<p>Here's my question - my son has also applied to some of the better ROTC programs around the country. And, given the lack of encouragement from West Point, he's starting to think seriously about ROTC - even if he gets into West Point. [many of these schools are better academically than West Point] The Scholarship Officers at the different schools have almost uniformly been very friendly and supportive. The Professor of Military Science where he did his required PMS interview virtually offered him a scholarship on the spot.</p>

<p>My question is this - upon graduating and receiving a commission from a high-quality Army ROTC program will my son have the same opportunities for a good initial posting in the Army and will his advancement be hurt at all by not having attended West Point.</p>

2

<p>Of all that I have heard or read or experierienced, I have always been told that an fresh Second Lieutenant has no advantage being commisioned out of USMA versus ROTC. I am an ROTC cadet and am currently reapplying to USMA for personal reasons, but of reasons of which your son needs to consider. Having a "regular" college life and still being able to be in the Army and commision after graduation is something that some people would like better than the almost 24/7 military life and having no "regular" college life that USMA offers. USMA has a greater offering in some of the during-college experiences militarily and ROTC collegiately: all-in-all I think it is a personal decision based on preference. ROTC is an excellent way to go. Either way in four years you'll have your butter bar.</p>

3

<p>Keep in mind that as of the class of 2005, graduates of the academy will receive "Regular" army commissions again as opposed to "Reserve" commissions that the ROTC folks receive. As far as what that will mean to their careers, I have no idea--I'm not from a military family. See below:</p>

<p>"Authorization Act add-ons will impact cadets</p>

<p>By Jim Fox
Assistant Editor</p>

<p>The Fiscal Year 2005 National Defense Authorization Act, signed into law by the President Oct. 28, contains two provisions that directly affect cadets and graduates of the U.S. Military Academy, said Alan Fox, a policy and planning officer in the academys Office of Policy, Planning and Analysis.</p>

<p>Graduates will once again receive Regular Army commissions and cadets and midshipmen of the service academies are now eligible for medical care, dental care and disability benefits.</p>

<p>Fox explained that since September 1996, all newly commissioned second lieutenants, regardless of commissioning source, received a Reserve commission. Historically, USMA graduates received Regular Army commissions. They were a source of pride and viewed as recognition for having graduated from the U.S. Military Academy. There was also a number of Army policies linked to the RA commission that provided a perceived advantage over the Reserve commission, such as protection during a reduction in force. Over the years, Congress gradually eliminated those policies to provide a level playing field for all officers regardless of commission or commissioning source.</p>

<p>Since 1996, however, Congress, the Department of Defense and the services continued to study and discuss the Regular versus Reserve commission issue. Academy alumni also voiced their concerns to the Armys leadership until earlier this year, when Congress decided to return to the policy of awarding Regular Army commissions for original appointments. At USMA, the Class of 2005 will be the first class to again receive RA commissions, Fox said.</p>

<p>Graduates who received Reserve commissions and are currently still on active duty lists will be transitioned into the RA over the next one to five years, according to West Points Maj. Bill Willis, deputy adjutant general/strength management.</p>

<p>The provision making cadets and midshipmen eligible for medical, dental and disability benefits is a very significant change to the status quo, Fox said. This change was brought about after Congress ordered a study on the subject. The findings by an outside contractor recommended that medical and dental disability treatment and care be provided for cadets as it would be for any other individual on active duty, according to Fox.</p>

<p>Historically, cadets and midshipmen at the service academies were specifically excluded from disability by law, he said. We viewed that provision as being inconsistent with the active duty status of cadets, especially given the military training they are required to participate in to graduate and be commissioned.</p>

<p>Fox said the disability legislation is not retroactive, but added that DoD and service specific regulations still need to be written, which potentially could take until next spring."</p>

4

<p>I wasn't really aware of this, although traditionally the RESERVE in reserve officers' training corp does give away the reserve component of obligation. However I was thinking of today's situation where most newly commisioned second lieutenants are deployed actively, and the question pertained to an "initial posting" during the active obligation period. I might be mistaken, I'm planning a career in the Army and am not really interested in the Reserves, but the 4 Active/4 Reserve for ROTC and 5 Active/3 Reserve for USMA seems pretty much the same anyway. GO ARMY!</p>

5

<p>USMA grads will generally fill the better assignments first. the Rangers, Special Ops, Airborne, anything in Hawaii. the investment is too high to not give them first shot. Quality ROTC guys have a chance for some of those units right off the bat too but it probably is a lower percentage of available slots. </p>

<p>As far as a career, the edge will go to USMA cadets. if your son has an interest in a lifelong military career, than USMA is the best bet. not only does he receive an incredible education, he's joining a unique fraternity of grads who put up with some special kind of crap for 4 years, and all their alums will essentially love each other for it. how else can you bond with guys like eisenhower and macarthur? key command spots will always be most frequented by other USMA grads and that will help your son's future advancement, make no mistake. </p>

<p>as for ROTC, well if one wants to have a 4 or 5 year cup of coffee but aren't really sure about 20 years, it's a good route to take, not quite as serious in the military obligation aspect during the 4 years of school. you can still do other clubs, or sports, or fraternities, or nothing. you generally don't have to live, breath, the army all the time.</p>

<p>if your son has leadership abilities, they will come to the fore during his ROTC years and in the service. and if he truly has it, he will advance just as well as a USMA grad. all things equal though, that USMA ring is benefical. not all slots are combat slots where talent rules. but as one gets higher in rank, politics exist just like in government and fortune 500 circles. </p>

<p>some of the best ROTC schools in the country are no-name schools next to top military bases, like Ft. Bragg NC, Ft. Lewis WA, Ft. Campbell KY, or Ft. Riley KS. the schools generally get full training support on the base and cadets get exposed to active duty instructors and equipment, such as helicopter assault training. ROTC instructors at the college level generally turn over every 3 years so a school good two years ago can drop off if a new PMS doesn't have it. something about being near a military base helps keep the staff motivated.</p>

<p>one last note, ROTC grads can receive regular army commissions, and are on par with USMA grads in that respect. however, only the top X percent get RA commissions, the majority of ROTC folk will get the reserve commission. even if they go active duty for more than a few months, they will be a reserve officer. obviously a careerist would like the RA status. why not ask that PMS you met for an update in case i am off the mark.</p>

<p>when i was at infantry officer's basic course, for all new lieutenants, the west point guys just walked with a swagger that came with the confidence you gain from being constantly challenged, and being successful in those challenges, at a relatively young age. they had a bond and it will stay with them both in and out of the service for the rest of their lives. west point is something special. you read about guys going back to "hudson high" after they serve their 5 years and cry about being back on campus because of the emotions and memory it brings. you won't get that at the ROTC armory on the regular campus.</p>

<p>so check your son's interest. i enjoyed ROTC as well as army active duty as an airborne ranger lieutenant. but i really loved my college and wouldn't trade the overall experience for a west point commitment. no thanks. i love anyone who puts it on the line there though.</p>

6

<p>Thanks much for your detailed response. My son's grandfather and two uncles on my wife's side are West Pointers and it's tough to get an unbiased view of ROTC vs. USMA. My son spent the summer in a pre-college program in the Southeast and I think it gave him a good view of college, girls, warm weather, etc. He's received a three-year and a four-year ROTC scholarship offer at two very good schools in the Southeast. He's on the waiting list at USMA. So he doesn't have to make a decision yet. </p>

<p>He's also applied to UCLA and their Army ROTC program. I get the impression you are from SoCal - any impressions of UCLA and their ROTC program. </p>

<p>Thanks again, and thanks in advance if you have time to respond.</p>

7

<p>quite frankly i wasn't even aware that UCLA had ROTC so nothing concrete to offer. as you may or may not know, the south has a deep history and affiliation with sending their sons into the service, and I would consider the south very pro-military. the schools there might be more supportive of the programs than out here.</p>

<p>UCLA is a state school, and like most, strapped for money. i would have to wonder about their commitment of resources ($$$$) to making ROTC an upper echelon program, thus putting your son on equal footing with others when he gets his commission. UCLA has elevated into the academic stratosphere so your son would need to be well-rounded across the board to compete with the student body in other areas. i'm guessing, but i think it is the rare bird who comes here for ROTC. </p>

<p>USMA puts emphasis on the branches in the army called "combat arms," those that will have some association with the battlefield. ROTC allows for emphasis in any branch -- finance, medicine, law, among others. if your son is not hard-core machismo military, ROTC would probably be a good fit.</p>

<p>I truly believe that USMA is like the Marines; it is so extreme in its focus, you get brainwashed, almost one-dimensional. it would take a special person to spend 4 years at USMA, 5 years in a combat branch, then exit to a civilian life and be able to sit at the water cooler at work and hear others freely express their views that perhaps the war in Iraq is morally wrong. i think an ROTC person will have a broader perspective even if pro-military by nature after putting in so much time. you should know better than me, you have family who were west pointers.</p>

<p>wrapping up, your son is 17 or 18 and it is very tough at that age to know what you want, particularly given the potential options he has earned. there can be no wrong decisions whatever track he takes. offer him your ear whenever he wants it but tell him to trust his instincts and don't second guess. I hope he gets the USMA acceptance just to make things difficult!</p>

<p>and whatever direction he takes, keep in mind that either with a scholarship or in USMA, if you go two or three years and change your mind, there could be some provisions that he obligates himself to serving time as an enlisted soldier. better check that out. maybe he won't like ROTC after one or two years but you took the scholarship money. ask about the small print as your son sounds too bright or driven to go into the service without a commission. and that is no slight to the 10s of thousands of ex-soldiers who have taken that route (and think, justifiably so in many cases, that second lieutenants are certified incompetents). good luck.</p>

8

<p>Norweejunwood</p>

<p>Keep in mind that USMA is the premier leadership school in the nation---take a look at how eager US business' are to hire West Point Grads, and then ask yourself again whether grads of West Point are worried about "water cooler" talk if they should leave the Army. Being from Southern California and also being familiar with several of the ROTC programs (UCLA, UCSD, USC--my son is a senior at SC-) I would have to disagree with your analysis. All 3 programs are strong and they provide students an opportunity to attend excellent Universities (both public and private) while preparing to serve their country.</p>

9

<p>I am caught in the same situation...West Point or MIT and ROTC?!
This is certainly not an easy decision, but there is a way to decide. My father is a Professor of Military Science at a nearby military academy, and knows almost everything about the commissioning, branching, and posting process, including who gets what.
West Point graduates will receive better military training and knowledge of the military, and will have better chances at special schools (e.g Ranger school, airborne school, air assault, etc.) However, after the first few years, USMA grads and ROTC cadets level out on an equal playing field. Now West Point grads may have favorites (other grads), but that goes for ROTC as well.</p>

<p>So, my recommendation is that if your son wants a career in the military, he should most definitely attend West Point. If he is unsure or does not want a fully successful Army career, another post-secondary school option may be best.
Hope that helped.</p>

10

<p>Thunderbird1990- what is your intended major? USMA only offers certain majors but both schools are engineering schools. </p>

<p>The difference in training I'd say between USMA and ROTC is that the ROTC kids have to claw their way to the schools like air assault and airborne while I think USMA kids tend to get to school with more ease. </p>

<p>Do you value things like spring break? If you DO like vacation, I don't really recommend USMA. Sometimes your breaks may be consumed by participation in certain sports. I finally had a nonworking vacation for the first time in a long time and actually hated it... think about the lifestyle choice as well because you don't want to drop out of beast because you realize the life isn't for you. Take your time, you have I believe until May 1st to make up your mind. Just do what you feel is most right for YOURSELF.</p>

11

<p>The majority of cadets are enjoying a spring break of their choice, like my son in the Dominican Republic with 5 other classmates. Even those who aren't are doing some pretty cool things. For instance, the women's soccer team is in Italy. My son chose to do AIAD last summer instead of taking "vacation". He went with the geology department to visit the National Parks in the southwest --climbed Pike's Peak, the Great Sand Dunes, rafted the Colorado. Did I mention these trips are fully funded? So you may not get what you consider the "traditional" breaks, but that is usually a choice. In fact, many people compete to get to give up their free time for these opportunities. If you choose to get the benefits of being a varsity athlete and your team is in the middle of their season, you give up your time off to participate. Many "traditional" university sports teams require the same commitment of their athletes.</p>

12

<p>Interesting about the top spots being offered to USMA graduates rather than ROTC. My own University of Oregon ROTC brother received one plum assignment after another after graduation, including Hawaii. It got to the point where we joked about it.</p>

13

<p>Yea, a bunch of my asian friends at USMA are going to China (go figure, hey I'd go to China someday except for looking redic because I don't know anything except for Happy New Years, Goodnight, Go to sleep, and a few food words)</p>

<p>Other universities have...more frequent, longer breaks and in some schools they offer an option where you can go on a semester long cruise taking class (BU I believe has that option)</p>

<p>Again, depends on what you want and how hard you're willing to work to achieve your goals. ROTC kids may have to work that much harder because they have much more competition, USMA only doles out one quarter of the officers. With ROTC you have a LOT MORE competition.</p>

14

<p>Yeah, the trips the cadets get to go on are pretty cool--Our Yuk D is headed to Greece next month with the Sociology dept.</p>

15

<p>West Pointers get a certain number of slots in each branch and at each post - picked by order of class rank on two seperate nights. So at the end of each night there's always someone stuck in a branch that they don't really want and there's always someone stuck with a post they dread. Someone has to be the transportation officer at Ft Polk! Same with ROTC - there's an OML (order of merit list) and assignments are given based on your first choice, etc based on your rank on the list. I think this is based on your gpa, input from your pms, and your performance at advanced camp, but I could be wrong.</p>

<p>As to military bearing, upon leaving ROTC and West Point, the ROTCers have no trouble catching up if there are any deficiencies. </p>

<p>Don't forget the downside to USMA is the reputation of cadets who were babysat for 4 years instead of living on their own. It's seen in the stereo-type which I've seen when I was younger: lots of 2nd Liuetentants trying to catch up on all the fun they missed while at West Point doing really stupid things in OBC.</p>

<p>Truely, a smart, energetic lieutentant, whether from USMA or ROTC, or OCS for that matter, is going to climb the army chain, whether as a careerist or not, with no problem. The USMA connections mean nothing after 2-4 years. The Regular Army vs. Reserve commission eventually becomes all regular for those who stick around. For those who retire with 20 years or more, there is no advantage to being a grad or not as far as retirement benefits. And the military connections you have after 20 years are based on what you did in the army, not where you went to school. Not that the ring isn't respected and doesn't open doors, but there will plenty in your life in 20 years to open doors!</p>

<p>And as far as promotions, assignments, etc., what matters now is what did you do in Iraq, and how did your rater rate you, not your commission source. And as far as schooling, each OBC has a certain number of slots for each school (abn, rgr, etc), as do each division (although with the deployment tempo it's hard to get away for that now) - so if you don't go as a cadet, there will be opportunities. And more opportunities will be available depending on the division you're assigned to - obviously the light and abn divisions send more guys to "hooah" schools than the mechanized. Once again - stay on top of your group, whether in rotc, at obc, etc., and you'll be plenty competetive for the schools you want.</p>

<p>So go to a school that you love - whether West Point or MIT or UCLA or where ever! The previous UCLA PMS was a West Point Grad, taught SOSH at West Point, etc. There are great guys running ROTC programs and they are a wealth of information if you have questions and doubts about their program's ability to prepare you for the army. These are all great opportunities and your future will be bright, not for choosing one great option over another, but for giving the one you choose your whole heart and mind!</p>

<p>Oh - and my son has the same difficult decision to make - I'm preaching this 24/7!!</p>

16

<p>What is the difference in practical military training when it comes to West Point vs. ROTC?</p>

17

<p>My son went through the same process last year. Notre Dame NROTC or WP. As his first term at WP comes to an end he is very happy with his decision. The number of unique experiences he has had in just 6 months is amazing. Beast barracks, Blackhawk rides, meeting Chuck Norris, lunch with fortune 500 CEOs at his table, spirit missions, Presidential speech, tackle football, trip to Washington DC, trip to Philly this weekend, firing lots of cool weapons, night vision training, scuba club, concerts, and $200 a month in his checking account. He has already started a Roth IRA-how many college kids can say that-lol.</p>

<p>His classes are all 18 students or less, something you will not get at an ROTC school. It is not for everyone and some of these activities are available elsewhere. But at West Point you don’t get to vegetate in your room very often-there is always something to do.</p>

<p>The reputation of the school could also help if he leaves the military. It is not for everyone-I could have never made it-but if you have the opportunity, look long and hard at it. Thanks to all of you future officers for serving, regardless of your commissioning source!</p>

18

<p>

Something you will not get at MOST ROTC schools. Some schools do have smaller classes, particularly if you are taking honors courses.</p>

<p>BTW - Congrats to you and your son.</p>

19

<p>I will say, from a “in the force stand point” it honestly doesn’t make a difference in the junior officer corps. some of the best officers in my battalion were west point, some were rotc, some of the worst were west point, some were rotc. it depends on the individual. the difference is in the expectation, because as a west point guy, your nco’s will expect more out of you, and if you do a good job, you’ll be fine, but if you dont, people will be quick to point out you’re a west pointer and a dud.</p>

20

<p>In the end your actions will help out your career. As screamingeagle put it as a west pointer you will be pressured to perform at a certain level.
Regarding your sons admissions there are also MJC programs known as the ECP where cadets will commission as a 2LT of the US Army in 2 years and transfer to a 4-year institution to finish their degrees.</p>

<p>I am currently enrolled in the ECP program and I gave up applying for West Point because I think believe that personally getting commissioned in 2 years while drilling with a national guard unit for 4 years will help build up experience for when I choose to go active duty and serve as the PL.</p>