usmma vs usna

<p>I just want to say as you can see from his flip-flopping replies, etc SeaScout is absolutely correct about this poster. He’s just ■■■■■■■■ for effect. The truth is all of this conversation going back and forth with him isn’t helping the original poster who asked a question that warranted an answer.</p>

<p>Also I tried to converse with him via PM and got a terse reply that indicated “he hates PM” post it here. I won’t do that, why waste all you folks time scrolling through the information. So remember whatever you do - DON’T PM Mombee, he “HATES PMs”…it takes away from or delays his ability to make his tee times and play golf.</p>

<p>This peson clearly has set views about both USMMA and USNA and only wants to take every opportunity to spout them off and get reactions from people who don’t share their view of the world. </p>

<p>If there was a dictionary that had a definition of “■■■■■■■■” then Mombee’s posts would be under the definition as examples…</p>

<p>^^^^^^LOL. Thanks for proving mu point as to why I dislike PMs which are PRIVATE messages by the way. I was simply letting you know that I was busy this morning and not ignoring you. Yes, several of the points you made were worthy of discussion and maybe of interest to other readers on the forum. Why keep them just between ourselves? Or do you feel your opinions cannot withstand public scrutiny? Or were you attempting to privately browbeat me? Seems as if intentionally misinterpreting my PM is an indication in that direction.</p>

<p>It seem to me that mobee can’t see how it could be beneficial to the fleet. To have a small portion of the newly commisioned officers have their primary skill set be the foundation that the service is built on!( Ship handling and propulsion systems) If having a degree in history or english serves the needs of the navy.One would have to agree having a degree in marine engineering or marine transportation would also serve the needs of the fleet. Is usmma better of worse than usna? It depends on the eye of the beholder. Do usmma grads enrich and help make the fleet stronger ? I say yes. I’m sure Mom will tell us how it weakens the national defense to have KP grads existing in his beloved navy : )</p>

<p>I “HATE” long posts almost as much as I “HATE” PMs since no one reads either, but since there is a thick layer of frost on the golf course and I have nothing better to do, I will try to salvage this thread from the ad hominem quagmire into which it has sunk.</p>

<p>Everyone who reads these forums becomes an emissary for the Service Academies, all of them. And from the number of readers who have read this one, not all of whom are here for the train wreck, I am sure, there is interest across the forum on what are the attributes of USMMA for those desiring a career in the Navy. So, jasperdog, it does transpire beyond the immediate needs of the OP. Next year when a parent in the supermarket check out line asks a parent on here now, that since her child had applied the previous year, what does she think of USMMA. We have KP2009 stating that it is better than USNA for future Naval officers, suzannegra saying that it should never be a part of a back up plan, jasperdog saying it is a great place to become a CEO of a Fortune 50 company since one can bypass the constraints of an O-1’s measly pittance, several stating that it is a great place to go for those who are undecided what they want to do with their lives, and a great place to “serve” ones country and get rich in the interim. And we cannot ignore SeaCadet running around screaming; “shoot the messenger, shoot the messenger.” If I heard any of these, I would cringe.</p>

<p>First off, lets address the “best” issue. Each Service Academy is a laboratory for its respective service. Each of the myriad of attributes necessary to become an outstanding officer can be tweaked and manipulated here like nowhere else. Any perceived shortcoming of graduates can be identified and corrected. To reduce this for USNA to a couple of leadership seminars and the ability to make a motivational speech is totally irresponsible. USNA is a laboratory for the US Navy and USMMA is the same for our Merchant Marine fleet, and their respective goals are far from the same. So, which procurement source makes the “best” officers. If we established a performance bell curve for all the grads of each source, USNA, senior military colleges, maritime schools, NROTC, and OCS, the peak of USNA is to the right with others falling in line to the left. Sure there is overlap but both the “best of the best” and the mean/average of USNA will always be the best, with maybe an occasional anomaly but since we have never had a USMMA CNO, I doubt it. Again, a myriad of attributes, hundreds of them, that make a great Naval Officer of which except for a very few, are better served at USNA. And the ones that are not are mitigated by the typical JO assignment and career path.</p>

<p>Secondly, lets address the “undecided” issue. Many things drive one to succeed. I don’t think one can deny that probably the two most prevalent is the desire to succeed/fear of failure. Typical of a lot of Type ‘A’s. Failure is not in their vocabulary. Even when told to stand in the corner for ‘timeout’ as a five year old, they had to be the best. These individuals will succeed anywhere. Secondly, there are those who are goal driven. They need a goal. The more specific the better. From our own personal life to hundreds of business axioms, striving to meet a goal is important to all of us. No one can convince me that the vast majority of those who want to serve their country have not developed some rather specific ideas about how they want to do it. I equate much of the undecidedness to a lack of education and research. A service academy which uses this as an asset is really providing a crutch rather than offering an asset.</p>

<p>Thirdly, service to ones country. A real slippery slope. I feel there are degrees of service. And I doubt that I am the only one who feels this way. Someone who basically signs over their entire life as they see it at the age of eighteen is not the same as someone who signs away four years for the opportunity to make a great salary, work at their own whim, and be represented by a union. And, personally, with everything going on today I will respect the WP candidate more than the same USNA contemporatry, and both a lot more than the undecided candidate heading off to USMMA.</p>

<p>As I have stated before, USMMA provides a critical and invaluable service to our MSC fleet. Don’t try to make it into something that it is not.</p>

<p>Frost is clearing up. Golf awaits. (jasperdog, were you really attempting to criticize me because the MMA forum is not my number one priority in life. Still haven’t figure that one out). And probably no one read this far anyway. Let the ad hominem attacks begin.</p>

<p>So, this is sort of like “rubber-necking” when you drive by the site of a recent bad auto accident on the “other side” of the roqd at this point. You know you should just look straight ahead and drive on through but…you can’t, that’s at least how I feel on this one but…here goes…</p>

<p>RE: #1: First off, lets address the “best” issue. … If we established a performance bell curve for all the grads of each source, USNA, senior military colleges, maritime schools, NROTC, and OCS, the peak of USNA is to the right with others falling in line to the left…"</p>

<p>Thanks Mombee, I’m pretty sure the entire forum is glad you cleared that up for all of us, especially since you substantiated your statement with such a vast compendium of data, I personally was especially impressed and compelled to change my own views by the array andd mutitude of impressive multi-colored graphs. Clearly during your Naval Career you have studied at the feet of masters and have vast experience preparing BLUF charts and short and sweet, well supported briefings for Flag Officers. </p>

<p>RE: “Secondly, lets address the “undecided” issue. …Secondly, there are those who are goal driven. They need a goal. The more specific the better. From our own personal life to hundreds of business axioms, striving to meet a goal is important to all of us. … I equate much of the undecidedness to a lack of education and research.”</p>

<p>Thanks for clearly illustrating the point of the true advantage of education gained the USMMA a Service Academy vice at least based on your post USNA, Milititary Academy. The laboratory Kings Pointers attend for four years does nothing if it doesn’t emphasize the need for flexible, open minded thinking in today’s world. Be it in the conduct of commerce in the world today “In Peace” or the conduct and management of logistics operations in support of military operations around the globe - “In War”. Yesterday’s enemies are today’s allies (again - In Peace and War). I could go on on this but my point is the very thing that mombee points to as a negative, really is an asset both to the student who learns that before graduation and to the nation. Of course if you believe the only thing a central Government should provide for is the basis and grounds for a common defense then the Federal Government in general and the Executive Branch in particular could and should immediately begin to disband numerous agencies, including basically all Cabinet Level ones except the Department of Defense and Mombee’s understanding of what the best education for leaders in the non-DoD sector which I disagree with can be properly considered though it doesn’t matter since the entire discussion on this point in a broader context is non-sequatar.</p>

<p>RE: “Thirdly, service to ones country. A real slippery slope. I feel there are degrees of service. And I doubt that I am the only one who feels this way. Someone who basically signs over their entire life as they see it at the age of eighteen is not the same as someone who signs away four years for the opportunity to make a great salary, work at their own whim, and be represented by a union. And, personally, with everything going on today I will respect the WP candidate more than the same USNA contemporatry, and both a lot more than the undecided candidate heading off to USMMA.”</p>

<p>Wow - I guess Mombee’s views are very clear and well stated on this point. To put it simply while he may not be the only one who feels this way, I would only say this view is not mine, nor would I believe it is the view of many, actually the majority of USMMA prospective or current students, let alone alumni. First let me clearly state a couple of points, a) Unless you are a decendent of a very “brahmin” family, instead of the son or daughter of immigrants, you are probably the product of a lineage that has benefitted from the Union Movement that improved working conditions and pay scales across the American Lanscape from the mid-1800’s through the mid-1900’s and in some cases continues to do so today. I personally don’t think that makes you any less of a good person or contributing member of American Society or culture than a person who chooses to pursue a career on Active Duty. b) Being a goal driven, capitalist who makes a good “salary” or better yet starts or otherwise leads a business that is part of the economic engine that drives our country doesn’t make you any less important or of less worth to this nation than someone who chooses to make a carrer of being an Active Duty Military Officer. Further as the latest National Gaurd commercials point out our country was founded by “citizen-soldiers” after all, and as the current data validates those citizen soldiers - reservists - as whom all USMMA graduates have an 8 vice 5 year obligation to be and serve - are highly likely to spend some of their obligation on Active Duty or clearly subject to callup. So in my view - I’d say - no, it’s really not a slippery slope at all because there are really differing degrees of service. Either you serve the nation for a period of your life in some capacity that isn’t entirely self-serving or you don’t. If you do you are, in my book, a good dog per say - and as the saying slightly modified goes - “All good dogs go to heaven.” My point is simply that we each serve in our own way and each way of serving has a differing set of sacrifices/compromises required and differing benefits/course of action. In all cases there is serving vs. not serving and in my opinion graduates of ALL 5 Service Academies as well as ALL ROTC programs, etc. who fully fufill and comply with the obligations they commit to should be equally appreciated and celkebrated.</p>

<p>Finally, I’ll publically apologize to Mombee for starting a PM response to his response with the phrase “Bite Me…” and explain in response to his question: "(jasperdog, were you really attempting to criticize me because the MMA forum is not my number one priority in life. Still haven’t figure that one out). Lord no, I was merely using your tone and what I felt could be sarcasm to illustrate your elitist mentality. It probably went over your head, not surprisingly, since you apparently trace your development through years of a culture of “ward rooms”, “officer clubs”, “rounds of golf on and off base”, and of course having stewards and messmen to serve you and do your laundry for you. I’m just a bitter guy who had to do my own laundry throughout life since moving out of the house and leaving mommy behind at 18; even worse when I reported to the USMMA as a plebe, I had to … (gasp) … do cleaning stations including can you believe it do so things below that of an officer as … clean the toilets for my entire barracks deck. That left me so botter that now all I can do is count the money I make and consider myself better than those who aren’t as smart or as well heeled as I when I go to events at the yacht or rod & gun club. I know not an excuse for using such bad langauge as “Bite me…” just an explanation.</p>

<p>Here’s wishing all who bothered to read this far - A fine Navy Day! I promise, really, I’ll try not to take any more of this bait.</p>

<p>

For anyone that can “trace their development through years of a culture of “ward rooms””, it is common knowledge that both in the Navy and the Marine Corps that the more senior one becomes, the greater the odds that the person they are saluting is an Academy grad. However, I am just an interloper on this thread. Perhaps, instead of me, we should ask those who made the initial comments about MMA being the ”best” to prove their position. I am simply rebutting. Perhaps, it is I who should say “prove it”.</p>

<p>In re your “undecided” rebuttal, I am having real difficulty getting my arms around what you are attempting to say. Your comment:

seems to be a tangent but a summary of your argument that the education for MMA students should be different due to their different mission. I think that is what I have been stating all along about the suitability of a MMA education as compared to Naval Academy training as preparation for a Naval career. However, to get back on track about “undecided” candidates, please allow me to rephrase. Why do you feel that MMA has a dropout rate twice that of the other Academies? And if you are going to say that it is because four years of academics is crammed into three years, my understanding is that it is still the same eight semesters that all colleges require. Or if you are going to say that USMMA does not offer history majors, be aware that USNA liberal arts majors require more technical coursework than do your transportation majors.</p>

<p>

I think we agree completely here. My point entirely.</p>

<p>No where did I state that I was anti-union. Just pointing out that the Woop grad up in the mountains of Afghanistan right now is not protected by one and that this, to me, is one of the points I offer to support your view as stated above that there are, indeed, differing degrees of service. And I guess you have never been at the receiving end of a fleet oiler JP line where the pressure is almost too low to sustain positive flow until after normal working hours overtime kicks in and things suddenly become normal.</p>

<p>Wow, I thought for a second that you were actually apologizing until I waded through your waffling and rationalization which, again, was difficult to follow. To paraphrase, what I think you finally ended up stating was that a very juvenile “Bite me” is an acceptable form of salutation from a “bitter guy” who knows how to open a box of laundry detergent and which end of the toilet plunger goes into the bowl to one who has had “years of a culture of “ward rooms”, “officer clubs”, “rounds of golf on and off base”, and of course having stewards and messmen to serve you and do your laundry for you.” Please correct me if I am wrong and I will gladly accept your apology. Quick question: How did you ‘serve’ during your reserve commitment? Anyone who has ever been on a Navy ship knows that everyone, even the enlisted, has their laundry done for them. Anyone who went to the Naval Academy would realize that fresh water is often an extremely critical issue at sea and they know and appreciate all the many methods of conserving this precious commodity.</p>

<p>“elitist mentality”. LOL. That should give me a few stroke advantage this morning. My partners will not be able to hit the ball from laughing at this description of me. I just wish my Woop buddy didn’t have to work and could be there. He would really appreciate it.</p>

<p>Mombee,</p>

<p>Give it rest. A midshipman has died. Now is the time for mourning.</p>

<p>I am a USMA grad my partner is a USNA grad my son is a USMMA grad. My partner and I are physicans retired from the military in private practice. My son is at the Naval Postgraduate school at Monterey. He could have gone to any academy he chose USMMA and is getting his masters in Marine Systems engineering. I am proud of the Naval midshipmen I have sponsored one in Marine aviation 3 tours, one completing Naval Air and the current Midshipmen wanting to go into nuclear propulsion and subs. I have many USNA grads that were thrilled that USMMA grads were working with them on thier ships because they had much more experience. Does Mark Kelley ring a bell 1986 USMMA grad. Yes the facitilites are antiquated with the entire USMMA budget less than either ARMY/NAVY football budgets. USMMA requires a Coast Guard license to graduate not even USCGA requires that. If you are a USNA graduate you are an insult to your institution and ignorant of the place and importance of ALL the service academies</p>