<p>
[quote]
... just remember in four years we are all in the same Navy and we all are clueless 0-1s.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's true. And also remember, if an admiral's bars are what you dream of, a whole bunch more of them will be wearing USNA rings. Even the USN leans heavily on relationships and politics.</p>
<p>"You're call."</p>
<p>guess he wasn't one of those 'bull majors...' </p>
<p>sealion, you're right. My d's fabulous high school was in the ghetto and attracted all the best students in a school district with 100,000+ students. It was amazing to see the Range Rover/Mercedes-driving parents dropping their kids off at school in the morning. These same kids are well represented at the Ivies, CalTech, MIT, and currently three are attending USNA. Sports Illustrated also ranked this school's sports program #1 out of 38,000 public and private schools nationwide (DeMatha got the #2 spot). At least now my daughter has the weapon though...</p>
<p>"That's true. And also remember, if an admiral's bars are what you dream of, a whole bunch more of them will be wearing USNA rings. Even the USN leans heavily on relationships and politics."</p>
<p>This is also true, but if being the best officer you can be for your sailors or marines is what you dream of, then you should go where you know you will be able to excel whether that be an NROTC unit or USNA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
guess he wasn't one of those 'bull majors...'
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your right about that! I'm proud of it, too! :D</p>
<p>
[quote]
but if being the best officer you can be for your sailors or marines is what you dream of
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is what it should be, although dreams of being a pilot, SEAL, etc., are understandable and just as valid. Take care of your people and learn your job, and the awards and promotions will follow. Your alma-mater may prepare you differently, but what you do with your commission once you earn it is entirely up to you.</p>
<p>Haha apparantly y'all haven't heard the stories about how the weekends have been getting now that Firsties don't have town liberty during the week. I've heard the nights are quite crazy in DTA.
I feel like I'm missing all of that because I had it for a year and yes I miss it, I would love to have the 'normal' college life but I aslo liek it here. I'm not a huge fan of structure but some doesn't bother me. I wish we didn't have so many fraeking study hours though...</p>
<p>Bump. Bump.</p>
<p>You appreciate your liberty & free time more when you have so little of it. </p>
<p>A lot of mids who are of age go drinking on the weekend, but just chillin and watching & feeling the air & the water, seeing people in civilian clothes, is more gratifying after a tough week at USNA than almost any party I've ever been to.</p>
<p>Plus, most of us believe there wouldn't be any parties to go to in this country if no one did what we're preparing to do.</p>
<p>Zackaw,</p>
<p>Great post. Great point. </p>
<p>The last couple of weeks on my (civilian) school's campus, I've been watching the freshmen class arrive - they've got Mom and Dad hauling their stuff up to their dorm, filling their fridges, making multiple Target runs for shampoo and deodorant and everything else they forgot to pack.</p>
<p>These freshmen look... well, they look childish compared with the plebes on I-Day. They look like they can't take care of themselves, like they need Mom and Dad to hold their hands through every challenge they're facing.</p>
<p>Never really noticed it before this year, when I sent my son to the USNA.</p>
<p>While you should all be very proud of what your children are doing, I don't think it's necessarily to insult every other college student en masse.</p>
<p>I don't think she's insulting these young people. Simply making an informed observation. I suspect these same young people might look more "mid-like" matrue if, like those bald-headed boys and cropped young ladies, they were placed in the position of having to grow up. </p>
<p>I suspect the difference is both chicken and egg, i.e. the ones ready to move on, do. And they seek the environment that will nurture that. Those who wish to linger awhile longer, often in the freedom of adolescence, take a different path. And each environment essentially nurtures the desire of their fresh audience.</p>
<p>Should anyone doubt the diff, compare and contrast the day of a plebe and a State U freshman 2 days, 2 months ... or 2 years into their respective frays. But again, I don't think that difference maligns either.</p>
<p>Zackaw--</p>
<p>So you decided on USNA after all!!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!
And from what I can see, you have made it through I-Day AND plebe summer! EXCELLENT!</p>
<p>So glad to see you back posting on here, and enjoying your little snipets of freedom! Hang in- as hard as it may get sometimes, it makes those "free" times just a bit sweeter! </p>
<p>Proud of you!!! :)
(and I have no doubt your mom and dad are too!!!! )</p>
<p>GoNavy2011, make no mistake, you're not making an informed decision. You're making a biased observation of limited sample size and drawing sweeping conclusions. I guarantee, had your child attended a non-SA institution, you would have been hauling supplies up those stairs, making Target runs, and generally holding the hand of your precious child while he/she adjusted to life away from home.</p>
<p>The difference at USNA is that WE, the midshipmen, hauled those supplies up the steps of Bancroft (remember those sea bags? What do you think was inside of them? Cotton candy and cupcakes?). And you still made the Target runs for things we forgot and items we needed (i.e. Care Packages?). You provided the hand-holding via letters and phone calls. Guess what? It's not that different.</p>
<p>I guarantee 75% of the plebes on I-Day felt small, bewildered, and childish, much like the arriving students of any other institute of higher education, the only difference was that we were too shell-shocked to show it.</p>
<p>Your chest-thumping on College Confidential on how great your child is, how fantastic SA's are, and how immature the rest of the freshman population is, is unwarranted and unwanted.</p>
<p>As you've observed, GoNavy, over many seasons at the U and one at the Yard, GoNavy, it's plenty different. I concur.</p>
<p>Considering the not unsubstantial differences between the service academies and civilian colleges wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that the students making the choice of one over the other would also have some differences.</p>
<p>On the other hand they're also, for the most part, civilian teenagers when they enter their respective colleges and service academies; wouldn't it be reasonable that they share quite a few similarities as well.</p>
<p>And whether they're college kids and look like they need their parents help with each and every challenge, or mids who are simply too shell shocked to show it, don't most that graduate become productive adults able to handle their lives without constant parental assistance?</p>
<p>But my question is, is there something about the Naval Academy forum that makes every difference of opinion a bloody argument? Are a proud parents observations so offensive that they're unwarranted and unwanted because they might be construed to be offensive by someone else, though I doubt they were meant to be? </p>
<p>Isn't it possible to explain that "that's not how I see it and service academy mids and cadets share similar experiences, though we might not show it?" It seems lately it's become impossible to go through as few as three or four posts before coming across some acidic comment. Is this a late summer phenomena, similar to the melt down a few years ago? Will we become friends again; we should considering we share such common experiences, hopes, goals, and values.</p>
<p>And this concludes my Sunday sermon. Praise the Lord and pass the powder.</p>
<p>Both of the posters who took exception to the observations, made by a cc member, are college students - one I believe is NROTC at a Civilian school and the other is at USNA. Both of these students take issue with somehow those at an SA are inherently better and more mature, needing no help from family or friends. What type of message do we send potential applicants - if they do not get into a SA or choose not to attend that they are perceived as less of a person and less of a productive member of society? Lets not forget that there will be many who frequent this site that will not end up at a SA. Lets not make statements that make those students feel any less as many are equal if not better individuals - by better, had the foresight and guts, and even profound disappointment to walk away from a SA for an option that was better suited for them.</p>
<p>Many USNA Midshipmen do not like that the parent group places them on this pedestal. They don't want it and are uncomfortable with it. In my Mid's mind he made a decision but that decision was no more "better" than his high school classmates. The attitude that these kids are inherently better is not doing your Mid or Cadet any favors. The last thing that our Military needs is for the SA grads to come into the fleet, or service with an "attitude" of superiority. Humility will get them much farther in life. One can certainly support their Mid or Cadet without placing them on this unwanted pedestal. Humility for us parents is a good place to start.</p>
<p>As for observation on the campus that I am associated with, I will be willing to bet there are just as many mature self sured freshmen showing up at this Civilian College as there are at the Naval Academy, just as there will be an equal number of those less sure of them selves beginning at both institutions. All are embarking on a new and unfamiliar journey in life and all should be applauded and wished the best of success for starting this journey. </p>
<p>To the new applicants - good luck with the beginning of this incredible journey. Where ever it takes you, know in your heart that you will arrive at a place that will be the best suited for you. There may be disappointments along the way, but in the end you will find your place and thrive.</p>
<p>As far as any hand holding that was, is or not done, comparing the SA’s to other colleges doesn’t make a lot of sense. To begin with you, as a parent, simply cannot do that at a SA’s, (though some seem to try) in direct terms, most of those responsibilities are left up to your child. If help of that kind was allowed or encouraged, assuming my son needed help I would have been more than willing to help him move in, what parent wouldn’t if there was an expressed need? I would have helped him, not because I felt he was incapable of doing it on his own, I would have been happy to help him just because he’s my son. If you look past the mom or dad helping their son/daughter move into colleges, I’m sure that is what you ultimately see in most of those kids. In other cases those kids may not have even been given the chance by their parents. I think many people loose sight of the fact that heading off to college or a SA is at times as traumatic for parents as it may be for kids. Especially if it is the child is the first out of the nest. </p>
<p>In our case the academy asked us to help in a somewhat different way, to write and provide encouragement, send care packages etc. Neither approach is better, whether you are talking about SA’s or private universities, just different. Take a look at new recruits heading off to basic training…are parents allowed to move them in and set up house? Is that because kids heading off to basic training are more mature or more capable of dealing with that move alone than most kids heading off to college? </p>
<p>WP, you mention the demeanor of the USNA forum, and as much we might wish it were different I cannot find any fault with your assessment. Why is another question. I think it’s great that the forum is so active, with about twice the number of posts as any other SA forum, on the other hand I wish that there were more times when people thought about what they were writing before they hit post reply. I try to ask myself before I reply to a post; do I have something add, something to say that will add to the post or help answer the question. Whether I’m successful or not, I can’t say, but that’s my goal. I think some people feel they must have the last word or they have to respond to every comment, criticism or observation; as if not responding to someone that disagreed with them or zinged them will somehow diminish them in the eyes of the readers on the forum. When that happens you end up with threads like the discussion about changes at the USNA. You have to know when you’ve said enough and realize the best thing you can add is nothing at all.</p>
<p>As I recall, this thread was started by a civilian college student asking whether USNA mids feel that they are "missing out" on the parties, drinking, etc. that are part of the "typical college experience".</p>
<p>Well, yesterday there was a big football game in the state where I live. Kickoff was at 10:00 am on a Saturday morning. Over 40 students were so drunk, they had to be taken to detox -- before noon. Over a dozen arrests for urinating in public, drunk in public, and fighting. One felony arrest for assault on a police officer. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, this game was considered a 'success' because the mayhem was significantly less violent than last years' student behavior.</p>
<p>Don't take my word for it. Here's the link:</p>
<p>Personal anecdote: I went in to work this morning on my campus at 7:00 am to start a computer modeling project up. On the way in to my lab, I passed trash bins overflowing with beer bottles, cups and cans. Stepped over a big puddle of vomit in the doorway of my academic building to go in. In the women's room, another puddle of vomit. (I don't know how they got in last night, since these campus buildings are supposed to be locked over the weekend.)</p>
<p>It's fraternity rush week here, and there was, of course, the big football game. But this really is par for the course around here - not quite this magnitude, but every Thurs-Sun is party night, and the DUIs and minor-in-posession tickets and the deaths from alcohol poisoning are sickening. Every April 20th, on "4-20" day, thousands of students congregate on the athletic field and smoke marijuana, hashish, etc. and nothing is done about it.</p>
<p>Can you really blame me for saying that these students, in my opinion, seem very "childish"? My family is fairly new to America, we are fairly recent immigrants, and this sort of behavior is shocking to us. It seems to us that the American college experience for a great many students is a period of extended childhood, of escape from responsibilities of any kind, and that the parents are abetting this destructive behavior.</p>
<p>Hey I'm one of those Not Going to Navy but could have. I certainly didn't turn it down because I thought I could party better some where else. According to my brother USNA '03 and Cousin (current Mid), DTA can look like what you described - what's the difference. The party scene is available anywhere you want it and to think otherwise is a head in the sand.</p>
<p>BTW Which is it? </p>
<p>
[quote]
In the interest of disclosure, we are a military family from way back. One grandpa .... * GoNavy2011 08-27-2007, 06:16 PM Liberty time reduced, study time going up at U.S. Naval Academy #97*
[/quote]
or
[quote]
My family is fairly new to America, we are fairly recent immigrants,
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Interesting that you didn't copy the entire post...nowhere did I say we were 100% American military. There are many other armed forces in the world, not just the U.S. Ever hear of soldiers marrying women from other countries, then bringing back her family after a few years? Bingo.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It seems to us that the American college experience for a great many students is a period of extended childhood, of escape from responsibilities of any kind, and that the parents are abetting this destructive behavior.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Given the cost of most all private and many public universities, I sincerely doubt the objective of most parents of college bound kids is facilitating recreational opportunities for their children in lieu of an education. That is not to say the conditions you may legitimately object to are not real issues at our nations universities. Colleges understandably do not feel as though they should assume the responsibilities of parents or provide a conscience to their students. They are there to provide the opportunity to learn in an environment with significantly more freedom than what you would find at a SA. </p>
<p>The fundamental distinction between SAs and “normal colleges and universities” is the introduction of a military environment and the laws that govern it. And I don’t mean the wearing of uniforms or classes military history. When you enter a SA you take an oath of office, you join the service and in doing so you give up the freedoms you cite; the ability to smoke pot with as you say much in the way of potential consequences or the ability to get falling down drunk. When you take that oath the consequences of your actions take on a much more sobering level of seriousness. </p>
<p>I also think you could legitimately question the way in which we go about preparing our kids for college. I grew up as a first generation American, a child of naturalized citizens that immigrated from Europe; Italy to be precise, just prior to WWII. We frequently had wine at the table for dinner, liquor was not a novelty or a taboo that I needed to explore once I got to college/ROTC. Many of my classmates did not have that experience and some spent a great deal of time making up for it at college. Fortunately most did not make drinking into their primary major, though their loss of focus may have pushed them into a 5 year plan for graduation. I also have no doubt you are seeing this aspect of college life through a different set of eyes. In that vain I think it would be beneficial for every American to spend some real time abroad and hopefully return with a greater appreciation for the freedoms and opportunities we have. </p>
<p>As an aside, in describing the football game and the level of drinking and violence, I hate to say it but your description matched perfectly with my recollection of a Yankees – Red Sox game I attended a while back. The behavior you describe is not limited to college age kids, and I don’t mean that as an excuse or indictment of their behavior, just an observation. </p>
<p>In choosing between a SA and a college you must know one of the things you will be “sacrificing” is a measure of freedom and control over how you conduct yourself during your college years. Which leads to a rather interesting and somewhat ironic conclusion; the kids that sacrifice much of their college freedom in attending a service academy may very well end up fighting to maintain the freedoms of those that don’t.</p>