USNA vs USCGA

<p>I have the 2003/2004 edition book right here on my lap and under toughest to get into USCGA, USAFA, and USNA all beat out USMA.</p>

<p>adam, I hate to break it to you, but you aren't the brightest of people I have posted to. The statistics for princeton review this right now is the admissions statistics for the class of 2008.</p>

<p>Think about it, what else would these stats be? 2009? the admissions cycle hasn't closed yet for many colleges including the service academies. Every one of those stats, as the website says, is for the class of 2008. Next winter, the stats for the class of 2009 will be posted. geez man, think.</p>

<p>That is simply not true considering that the Princeton review's wbsite is updated throughout the entire year especially as it gets closer to decision time in the spring. Obviously, the book is written in the beggining of the year so therefore, it doesn't take into account the changing factors that influence the admissions process (especially at a military school) like the web page does. You simply cannot deny the factors which I have alluded to in the previous post. Besides, why would I make this up?</p>

<p>adam, I am willing to garentee you that I have checked princeton review many times over the last 4 months and it hasn't changed once.</p>

<p>But to be honest, I have lost interest in this discussion. Believe what you want, it honeslty makes no difference to anyone or anything.</p>

<p>The ranking I am talking about was posted LAST YEAR at this time before you were probably even applying to college, not in the last four months. Therefore, telling me that those statistics were not for those applying to the class of 2008 is flat out wrong. Snipes, its pretty pathetic to insult someones intellect over something this trivial.</p>

<p>ADAM-</p>

<p>You are a good example of why West Point is not the most selective service academy. I have the Princeton Review Ranking BOOK with the class of 2007 stats which is what you are talking about. West Point is at the bottom of the heap, there is no contest, there are no exceptions, you are WRONG and like my cohort Snipes, I am thouroughly disgusted with this discussion that should not even warrant debate. West Point has been the least selective service academy for a while. This is common knowledge</p>

<p>This is a stupid thread, and is fairly meaningless given that a candidate should be applying to an academy based on his or her desire to serve in a particular branch, not based on some bizzare idea that whichever academy he or she was accepted at must be the best or the hardest to gain admittance to. School spirit is fine, let's wait till you actually get there though before the trash talk begins! My daughter was accepted to both Annapolis and West Point (and recruited by neither) yet was recruited by both the Merchant Marine Academy and the Coast Guard Academy but chose not to apply to either. It had nothing to do with which school was at the top of one heap or another but rather had to do with her desire to lead soldiers. West Point is the primary leadership school in the nation and if she is going to personally lead men and women into harms way thats where she belongs. I hope all of you have found where you belong as well. Many of you have been accepted to some of the finest schools in the nation--time for everyone to start acting like they belong there!
Good luck!</p>

<p>One final thought---don't let anyone forget that current world events are driving the very numbers you are all debating over. It's fairly apparent that some of the academies are going to see their application numbers bump up in comparison to WP and by virtue of the fact that the class sizes are fairly stable the admittance rates are going to be affected. We all know where a 2nd Lt in the Army is likely to be headed vs the majority of Ensigns and AF 2nd Lt's. (No, I'm not forgetting the Marine options out of the Naval Academy---those people are a special breed and we know where they are headed for as well, but they are in a minority at navy.)</p>

<p>I greatly respect the cadets at West Point and the other academies, I was just voicing my thoughts on false statements. I admire the fact that they are willing to go into harm's way for our country. I hope to do the same some day one way or another.</p>

<p>Well said, though aren't women restricted from serving in combat leadership roles? I was curious about this, but since shogun's daughter will be leading men and women into "harms way," aren't women restricted from all direct combat roles? I watched this special on PBS called Frontline I believe. Those soldiers are brothers and family. They trust each other with their lives and their backs. They are closer than family and more important than friends. It is my opinion that having a women in that combat environment would be awkward and detract from the very close and often vulgar environment those soldiers share.</p>

<p>It is hard to have anything but the highest respect for those men who put themselves at the foot of the danger, and should I go into the Army, I would make sure I was put on the lines with them, because those are the men I want to eat with, bleed with, and if it came to it, die with.</p>

<p>I can't imagine being in the Army outside a direct combat role.</p>

<p>Snipes-</p>

<p>I watched that Frontline show. It was pretty intense. Made me want to join the infantry! Yea women can't serve in ground combat roles. The closest they get to that is aviation. I really hope I get my shot at combat though. Do you know how competitive it is to get into a unit over in the middle east coming out of the Academy?</p>

<p>Well SEAL6, I would imagine it isn't all that difficult! I think that most will get one there regardless. After all, 70 people from last years graduating class got forced branched infantry because that is what the army needs right now. I also don't think West Point combat roles are difficult to get. I think it is 80% of all males graduates need to go into some branch of combat arms.</p>

<p>I was talking about CGA</p>

<p>LOL. My bad, you had me confused there! Hmmm, I'm not sure, I don't think there are many units in Iraq, there are some damage control groups over there, but most CGA graduates go to sea, usually protecting our seaboards.</p>

<p>There are all the port security guys over there that work with the navy special boat units and the boarding contingent that most of the navy ships have, plus the ordinace disposal guys.</p>

<p>A number of women soldiers have already been killed in Iraq via car bombs, snipers, and other insurgent attacks. Right now the women at WP who want to serve close to the action are opting for the Military Police and in some cases are being assigned along side the Iraqi police. There are even bomb disposal units staffed with women in Iraq. Remember, these days there is no "front line, " and although technically they can't be given a "combat assignment" they are in the field of fire nevertheless. Eventually, (and that day is coming sooner than anyone thinks) even the "combat" distinction will be dissolved where women are concerned---the US is usually a few years behind the rest of the world in what is accepted from our women.</p>

<p>"More Females Paying The Price In Iraq
HeraldNet
April 19, 2004,</p>

<p>CARLISLE, Pa. -- Kimberly Fahnestock Voelz is buried near the church where she was baptized, a few miles across fallow farm fields from the stables where she raised quarter horses as a teenager. Next door is the yellow frame house she left one day in 1996 and, without telling her parents, joined the Army. </p>

<p>Voelz came home in a military coffin in December, dead at 27 from a booby-trapped bomb in Iraq. She was the first American female explosive ordnance disposal expert killed in action -- one of 16 women to give their lives so far in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. </p>

<p>Staff Sgt. Voelz died in the arms of her husband, Max Voelz, also a staff sergeant on the 17-person ordnance disposal team on which Voelz was the lone woman. Her parents, Floyd and Carol Fahnestock, were devastated by her death, but comforted by the knowledge that their headstrong daughter died performing a job she loved and living the adventurous life she had always craved. </p>

<p>"Kimmy wanted to do exciting things and see the world," Carol Fahnestock said recently while sitting in her kitchen, flipping through a thick photo album of her daughter's military career. </p>

<p>Across America, parents of young women are confronting a new military reality: Females are more likely than ever to be placed in or near combat zones. Ten women have been killed by enemy fire in Iraq, proportionately the highest number in American history. By contrast, one woman was killed by enemy fire in Vietnam, three during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, and none during conflicts in Korea or Afghanistan. </p>

<p>After the 1991 conflict, Congress lifted prohibitions against females serving on planes or ships that were likely to see combat, and women rapidly moved into dangerous assignments previously reserved for men. Today the threat to soldiers is particularly high in Iraq, where a deadly guerrilla insurgency has placed every service member -- man or woman, combat soldier or supply clerk -- at risk of attack. </p>

<p>Nearly 20,000 women are serving in Iraq, 15,000 of them in the Army. At 15 percent, the proportion of females in the armed forces is the highest ever. Between World War II and Vietnam, women composed 2 percent of the armed forces. As recently as the 1991 gulf war, the figure was 11 percent. </p>

<p>For the Fahnestock family, Kimberly's death did not erode their support for women serving in dangerous assignments. Her parents say they would not have wanted their daughter to be relegated to a traditional female military role -- nurse, clerk, cook or supply soldier. Voelz insisted on an action-oriented assignment, and was one of just 37 female explosive ordnance specialists in the Army. She died Dec. 14 from injuries received while attempting to defuse booby-trapped tank rounds attached to an electrical tower near Iskandariyah. </p>

<p>"She was proud of what she was doing -- she loved her job," said her father, a Vietnam veteran. "She didn't want to sit behind a desk." </p>

<p>While there has been no groundswell of protest against the high rate of female combat deaths in Iraq, the matter of women serving in war zones is still controversial. A December survey by the Gallup Poll found that 16 percent of 1,004 Americans surveyed said women should never get combat assignments, while 45 percent said they should get such assignments only if they wanted them." </p>

<p>Seal6</p>

<p>Hmm>>> bomb disposal in Iraq and serving along side the Iraqi police in Baghdad---sounds a lot closer to "combat" than avaiation, although women are flying A10's and cobras over Iraq as well. The world as well as the nature of "combat" is changing, boys.</p>

<p>No women in combat???</p>

<p>"Army Capt. Kimberly N. Hampton</p>

<p>27, of Easley, S.C.; assigned to 1st Battalion, 82nd Aviation Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, N.C.; killed Jan. 2 when her OH-58 Kiowa observation helicopter was shot down by enemy ground fire in Fallujah, Iraq.</p>

<p>Parents, fianc</p>

<p>WOMEN WEST POINTERS ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ</p>

<p>"Women distinguish themselves as officers in Iraq </p>

<p>03/01/04</p>

<p>Chuck Yarborough
Plain Dealer Reporter</p>

<p>Tikrit, Iraq - It was hot, and his unit had just finished its lunchtime weave through the concrete maze into the Iraqi police station in Samarra, a town where dump, slums and suburbs are all the same place. </p>

<p>No one could blame the young soldier for taking off his Kevlar helmet - only for a moment - in the midday heat. </p>

<p>No one, of course, except his company commander. The West Point graduate began a profanity- filled tirade that had three effects: One, it showed the scope of physiological and literary allusions taught at the U.S. Military Academy. Second, it got the soldier to put his helmet back on right now. And finally, it delivered the lesson that neither he nor anyone who heard the lecture would ever cross Capt. Jennifer Knight. She can make you wish your parents had never been born. </p>

<p>"She's a superstar," said Knight's boss, Lt. Col. David Poirier, who commands the 720th Military Police Battalion stationed in Saddam Hussein's hometown. "If she puts the time into the Army, Jennifer Knight will be a general." </p>

<p>Certainly it's not unusual to see women in military leadership in Iraq. According to several sources, about 15 percent of the more than 100,000 American troops in the Persian Gulf are women, the largest deployment of females in U.S. history. </p>

<p>The Military Police, in particular, are staffed with a large number of women officers. In the 720th, about a third of the platoon leaders are female. </p>

<p>Women still are prohibited from serving in some roles - infantry, special services and heavy armored divisions - but that doesn't mean they don't see their share of combat. </p>

<p>Poirier said that during this conflict, Knight's company and its platoons have faced more combat than any other in the battalion. </p>

<p>"If my sons want to join the Army, I'd be happy if they were led by Jennifer Knight," he said. </p>

<p>Poirier assigned the tall, angular 28-year-old New Jersey native to turn the city of Samarra - Iraq's version of Tombstone, Ariz. - into a peaceable place. It was not easy. Samarra was the site of some of the worst fighting the battalion faced in its year in Iraq. </p>

<p>In one instance, violence erupted in the streets while Knight was on the job. Some members of the new Iraqi police force turned tail and fled. </p>

<p>"She got fire in her eyes and grabbed the Iraqi police chief. She fired the guys who ran," Poirier said. "She used a lot of talent in her company to tame that town of Samarra. A town that hadn't been 'fixed' in 10 months, she fixed within 30 days." </p>

<p>Knight takes her boss' praise and his prediction of her rise to general modestly. "I just want to do my job," she said. "If that's where it takes me, that'd be awesome." </p>

<p>Where Knight, who is married to an MP, is usually reserved - provided you keep your Kevlar helmet where it belongs - one of her fellow officers in the battalion, Lt. Alexis Marks, is almost the opposite. Marks is hard- charging, fun-loving and an outgoing free spirit. </p>

<p>Like her grandfather, Marks also graduated from the U.S. Military Academy. Grandpa once held the record for "punishment hours" awarded for rules infractions at West Point with 144. Marks took that dubious honor from him with 155 during her four years. She had a picture taken to rest alongside his on the family mantel in Florida. Each caption notes the number of hours served. </p>

<p>Retired Col. Joe Adamczyk, who was her tactical officer at West Point and is in Iraq as a deputy in the American-led coalition's division of operations and infrastructure, said he remembered Marks well. </p>

<p>"There were two kinds of students in my office," Adamczyk said. "There were the very good students and the 'other' kind," he said, leaving no doubt that Marks was the latter. </p>

<p>Even so, he said he was not surprised at her success as a leader. </p>

<p>She is a natural at the job, brave enough to take risks, smart enough to know when not to and creative enough to devise the right ways to do it, he said. </p>

<p>Marks, 24, is only 5 feet 1, with dark hair and sparkling ice-blue eyes. But when a visiting officer told her, "You have the most beautiful eyes" - she reminded him, in no uncertain terms, that he needed to find other fields on which to apply his fertilizer. </p>

<p>Lt. Alexis Marks takes no prisoners. </p>

<p>Her platoon is almost religiously devoted to her. Not because she's a West Pointer, but because they've seen her under fire. </p>

<p>In Samarra one night, Marks' platoon was pulling a patrol and was hit by several mortar shells, Poirier said. </p>

<p>"Several soldiers were lost to injuries," the battalion commander said. "The female soldiers, led by Marks, performed life-saving measures. You would have expected them to be traumatized, but they came back like tigers." </p>

<p>On another night in Samarra, her Fourth Platoon came under attack. </p>

<p>"There were some flashes, and when that happens, you go into your training," Marks said. "I went inside and got on the radio and told them we needed a QRF [quick relief force]. I could hear my soldiers screaming from where I was." </p>

<p>Marks handled the episode, but as tough as she is, it left a scar. </p>

<p>"I was really torn afterward," she said. "My job is to get on the radio, but when the heat is on, you want to run out to your sol diers. </p>

<p>"My God," she said. "There was so much blood." </p>

<p>Marks, who is single, said she loves her role in the Military Police. </p>

<p>"You can't have chicks in the infantry," Marks said in her matter-of-fact way. "This is the best branch to be in to be in leadership. The thing I love about the MPs is it's pretty much the only job where a female can be a platoon leader." </p>

<p>Bravery is not limited to women from West Point. </p>

<p>Consider the case of Spc. Sara Michelle Barnett, with the 2nd Platoon of the 64th MP Company on Nov. 30, 2003. </p>

<p>There is a sergeant who owes his life to her. </p>

<p>Barnett, 22, has been in the Army since she graduated from Humble High School outside Houston, Texas, almost five years ago, hoping to get some college money. She wants to be a police officer, and she figured five years as a military cop would be a good start down that path when she gets out of the Army in August. </p>

<p>She has been to Kosovo twice, but that was nothing like what she has witnessed in Iraq. </p>

<p>"I've seen a lot of destruction, a lot of death," she said, peeking out from under her worn "lucky" Adidas ballcap. "The way these people live, it's worse than the way people live in Kosovo." </p>

<p>Even all her experience couldn't prepare the 5-foot-1½, 110-pound soldier for that November night in Samarra. </p>

<p>"I felt like the weight of the world was on my shoulders when it happened," she said quietly, hunkered into a near slouch on her commanding officer's cot, the only private place in the company's quarters. </p>

<p>Barnett and her squad were protecting a truck carrying Iraqi cash to one of the local banks. They were held up for a while, then headed into town. Within two minutes of pulling up at the bank, they began taking small- arms fire. </p>

<p>There were snipers all around. The soldiers in the escort convoy fought a pitched 45-minute battle, and then it happened. Barnett's squad leader, Sgt. Phillip Stow, was hit. The shot took half his face off. Barnett leaped to his side and began first aid. Other soldiers joined the fray, told her to continue what she was doing as Stow's blood soaked battle dressing after battle dressing. </p>

<p>Finally, they hauled him into a Humvee and took off. They managed to get him to a landing zone, where a helicopter carried him to an aid station. At the time, no one thought he would live. </p>

<p>Stow survived and is back in the United States recuperating. </p>

<p>"I got a letter from him two weeks ago," Barnett said. "He's doing fine. They expect him to make a complete recovery, but it's going to take a long time." </p>

<p>Barnett said she held it together throughout the episode, but back at the base, once Stow was gone, she "let it go." </p>

<p>After the fact. That's the important thing. </p>

<p>She still has nightmares about the attack, but refuses to let it rule her. Talking about it helps. And she's sure she will get over it eventually. </p>

<p>"I think I'm pretty strong," she said. </p>

<p>Strong enough to prove that women can handle themselves when the bullets and blood start to fly."</p>

<p>It's About Leadership, Ladies And Gentlemen. Not Sat Scores, Act Scores, Number Of Applications Received, Number Accepted, The Nomination Process, Or The Size Of The Class. Leadership. If Anyone Doesn't Think Women Can Or Should Lead In A Combat Situation They Need To Re-read The Above Post.</p>

<p>" 'nuff Said "</p>

<p>Whoa. You didn't really have to justify women as leaders like that, I don't question their ability to lead. (Personally I'm a Hilliary '08 type a guy). I was mostly referring to the PBS special I saw. I personally wouldn't want to serve in a combat unit with women. It's not personal, gender biased, or doubt in their ability, it would just break the comraderie US soldiers have had with one another for over 250 years. It's the "band of brothers" side affect of combat that I think would be severely damaged were a women present, and more importantly I think it would extremely awkward were a women to be leading a combat unit, given that an overwhelming majority (90% or more) of soldiers in a combat unit would be men, no matter who was allowed to be in combat arms.</p>

<p>I think we as a country have come along way with women in the military. My grandmother was a Navy WAVE, she was among the first women to go to sea in the 50's. Women can serve aboard all ships (except submarines for obvious reasons), and all branches of the Air Force and Coast Guard. But I have to admit, I think that positions of direct combat (Infantry, Armor, Artillery, etc.) should be left exclusively to men, as they are now.</p>

<p>Yes, women are amongst the danger. They are being killed or injured or captured and are serving honorably and courageously. But still, the common bond shared between men in combat and the amount of death and danger they face on a constant basis should not be jeopardized by and subjected to our nations women.</p>