<p>just out of curiousity how much do you make in a commerical shipping job?
I never knew they made that much money, im intrigued
and someone mentioned a price to attend USMMA, does anyone have an estimate as to the cost?
Thank you (I'm still trying to decide what my main back-up is and I never really thought about USMMA until now)</p>
<p>An obscene amount of money. KP grads pretty much run the shipping business, so they tend to move up quick in the industry. My uncle graduated from KP, and he was president of a major oil shipping company at age 40.</p>
<p>I can't find it on their website but how many each year enter active duty military and how many sell out to the big bucks and become transportion specialists, something akin to glorified bus drivers and airline pilots.</p>
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<p>Newly graduated Merchant Marine officers are commanding salaries of $10,000 per MONTH, with many of them getting more.</p>
<p> [quote=USNAgolden2014] and someone mentioned a price to attend USMMA, does anyone have an estimate as to the cost?
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<p>4 years will cost you approx $15,000.</p>
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<p>Typical navy-biased ignorance toward Kings Point. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>"Sell Out" is a ridiculous term to use, when they are specifically trained to work as officers on US-flagged merchant vessels, serving the interests of the United States. They are doing exactly what they are supposed to do.</p>
<p>They have no obligation to enter active military service. Their only obligation is to take a job as a ship's officer at sea, ashore in the maritime and intermodal transportation field, or as an active duty officer in one of the Armed Forces.</p>
<p>They have a CHOICE. Taking the first option is hardly a "sell out". </p>
<p>I hear many USNA grads state they wish they had gone to USMMA, but not vice-versa.</p>
<p>The mindset that believes that KP grads are "selling out the country as a glorified bus driver" is shameful, typical haze-gray cruise line ignorance, bordering on jealosy. Their service is of vital importance to the security of the United States, despite not having guns, bombs, or bullets to kill people.</p>
<p>As a Kings Point graduate, you have "options," and you are "In Demand."</p>
<p>Hardly a "sell out." :rolleyes:</p>
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They have no obligation to enter active military service. Their only obligation is to take a job as a ship's officer at sea, ashore in the maritime and intermodal transportation field, or as an active duty officer in one of the Armed Forces.
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<p>The operative word here is active. </p>
<p>There is an obligation to to serve in the armed forces as well. In addition to working in the US Maritime Industry, graduates ALSO have an obligation to serve 8 years in the Reserves or National Guard. </p>
<p>95% of the world's commerce moves on the sea. Having US officers with a military background out there is a good thing. </p>
<p>Also, because of their extensive training in transportation and logisitics, the National Guard has recently established a nationwide team of Kings Pointers to be on call to rapidly respond to major disasters. (one of the biggest weaknesses of the Guard in responding to Katrina was lack of logisitics expertise)</p>
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<p>In the past, actively serving in the merchant fleet would preclude involuntarily being called up while in the reserves due to the national importance of their duties. Is this still true?</p>
<p>I think "sell-out" is entirely an appropriate term.</p>
<p>One always "sells-out" to their higher calling. Whether you sell-out to the financial calling or to a service calling, that is precisely what any graduate does.</p>
<p>There is nothing inherently wrong with "selling-out." That is a personal decision; I can respect that.</p>
<p>At the same time, however, whether public money should be used to support those who then command salaries in excess of $10,000 per month, well that would seem to support the notion that perhaps KP should not be a service academy.</p>
<p>There are other support options--probably cheaper options--to attract those mariners who want to be on us-flagged vessels and in the naval reserves.</p>
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<p>One always "sells-out" to their higher calling. Whether you sell-out to the financial calling or to a service calling, that is precisely what any graduate does.</p>
<p>There is nothing inherently wrong with "selling-out."
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<p>Wrong. That's NOT what is defined as a "sell out." It is NEVER used as a complimentary term.</p>
<p>*"Selling out" refers to the compromising of one's integrity, morality and principles in exchange for money, 'success' or other personal gain. </p>
<p>A person who does this, as opposed to following the original path s/he laid (or claimed to lay) out for him/herself, is labeled a sellout and regarded with disgust and immediate loss of respect. Selling out is seen as gaining success at the cost of credibility.*</p>
<p>To accuse any graduate of USMMA of "selling out" by taking a job in the shipping industry is insulting, and USNA69 owes every one of them an apology.</p>
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I hear many USNA grads state they wish they had gone to USMMA, but not vice-versa.
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<p>I have not surveyed midshipmen so I can’t say I have a definitive basis to refute this observation except to say I find that comment very hard to believe. If you said some USNA grads might be envious of the compensation earned by a USMMA grad, I could believe that; that however is an entirely different point than claiming USNA grads were envious of the opportunity to attend the USMMA. </p>
<p>While I understand there is an interest in comparing institutions that may be under consideration by young men and women visiting this board, I think it’s very difficult to do without engendering some ill will on all sides. My son did not apply to the USMMA, he did however apply to the CGA. It was very hard to compare the facilities and staff once he had seen and experienced the Naval Academy. </p>
<p>As people have touched on the potential salaries earned by USMMA grads, it would be safe to say money matters; both in terms of salary as well as the funding that is available to run an Academy or any other educational institution. While USMMA grads may have a leg up when it comes to their pay check once they have graduated, the funding and subsequent resources made available to the attendees of WP, USNA and the USAFA, is in a class by itself. Ultimately the funding of any educational institution will impact their ability to hire and retain the best teachers as well as the kind and quality of education that can be offered to those in attendance. </p>
<p>I’m sure the USMMA is very good at it’s mission; to educate and prepare men and women to enter the merchant marine fleet and serve in associated careers. I cannot however see how someone who has a strong preference to go Army/Navy or Air Force would want to make it their first choice. To use it as part of a back up plan perhaps along with ROTC perhaps, but given the very limited degree choices, I would question that as well when ROTC paths are readily available. </p>
<p>As to the comments about the earning potential of USMMA grads, I would encourage anyone thinking about the USMMA solely on the basis of earning potential and not because driving a ship is your calling to consider why the salaries are as high as posted. We live in a free market economy; salaries are determined by what it takes to attract and keep qualified candidates in that job. Shipping companies don’t pay $10k a month because they like you and want to pay twice what they could get away with just to be nice. The salary is necessary because of the demands of the job and the sacrifices you and your family (assuming you choose to have one), will make.</p>
<p>I was a prospect for USNA kinda like my handle suggests. I went to the Nov CVW then had my MOC interviews. About a week later the secretary for one called and asked me whether I'd applied to USMMA. I hadn't then. Since then I applied, and three days after I got all my app stuff in their Admissions called me and invited me for a visit. Yeah, I'm a bit (only a bit) disappointed in the limited majors, but after the next four years? My big problem is how am I going to choose. Oh well I guess I have four years to figure it all out.</p>
<p>USNA69 I have to say at first I apprecitated your perspective but I have come to be disappointed in your myopic judgmentalism. Hearing that kind of stuff oly cements my commitment. People don't put something or some other institution down unless they're worried about home base.</p>
<p>Anyway thanks to all the people who WERE really thoughtful, I'd say this forum did me a really great service and thanks everyone. Now it's back to the books for spring semester.</p>
<p>Jason</p>
<p>USNA69,
KPers sell nothing out. KP is the only federal academy with a battle standard, meaning they are the only one to have students die in battle, and in WWII, the death rate for Merchant Mariners was much higher than any other service, including the SWOs, glorified bus drivers with large guns as you might call them.</p>
<p>Only one third of graduates accept active duty commissions in the military. Our tax dollars are supporting an institution whose major purpose is to support private industry. Is this good stewardship of our federal money? I don’t think so. A lot of our leaders from both sides of the fence seem to agree. Private industry is all about supply and demand. If the demand is there, they have ways of ensuring the supply.</p>
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<p>I love it. All opinions are welcomed here unless they disagree with the majority. Then one is personally attacked somewhere along the line of clueless ignoramus.</p>
<p>Ignorance, hardly. Many deployments in the Indian Ocean aboard a supply ship, having to deal with unrepping from the MLSF ships, dealing with crew days, union demands, and overtime, or the lack thereof, depending on the desirability of the evolution has shown me that they are largely money driven.</p>
<p>Ignorance, again hardly. We hear stories on these forums of Academy representatives telling prospective candidates of the $10,000 monthly salaries. I have heard myself at an Academy Day for three years in a row, the MMA representative telling the audience that if they are not sure about Patriotism, about serving their country, then surely they are sure about money. He then displays a $1,000,000 check which represents the money he made from selling his first company and becoming a millionaire at the age of 35. I was so infuriated the first time that I heard it that I reported him to the MMA Admissions office. They didn’t seem to mind; he has been back an additional two years with exactly the same presentation.</p>
<p>Here is what I see as a sellout. Candidates from the major academies, mainly USNA consider MMA as a back up. USNA falls through and MMA becomes the reality. The desires with which they formed their initial patriotic desires to serve their country cause them to see MMA as a good move. While there, they see the lucrative careers of those they serve with on sea year. They change their mind. They graduate and join the merchant marine force. Within a few years, family, home, and other concerns become a factor. They suddenly realize why they are making the big bucks and commence wondering if it is really worth it. Soon, they are standing on a pier with a clipboard in hand, inventorying freight, disillusioned, at a very reduced salary, and dreaming of what could have been, launching off a carrier some bright clear morning strapped to their F-18, afterburners aglow, not being able to resist a barrel roll and then pointing the nose straight up. If only they had gone to an academy whose goal was to produce military officers instead of one whose goal was to support our maritime industry. A $10k monthly salary is a mighty big carrot. Sure, some sell their hearts to obtain it.</p>
<p> [quote=Luigi59] I hear many USNA grads state they wish they had gone to USMMA, but not vice-versa.
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<p>I cannot totally refute this but I am most positive that I have spent many many more hours than you talking to infinitely more Naval Officers. I have never once heard anything close to this statement. I would guess that it is a variant of the “That sure is a beautiful baby” little white lie. However, there are approximately 120 midshipmen at the two academies who were accepted at both. Only two or three are at MMA. Ask them why they chose USNA? The two at MMA are probably legacies and were forced to go. </p>
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<p>Omit KP and insert everything from Al’s Truck Driving Academy to Harvard University and you will still have a true statement.</p>
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<p>Exactly. The only problem is that the KP backup planners, to a person considered service to country their higher calling. That only 1/3 of the graduates pursue military careers indicates to me that some have sold out to a financial calling of which they may not even have been aware when they entered.</p>
<p>Wondrin2012, if you are truly “wondrin”, I posted my comments just to give candidates like you something to wonder about. Good luck.</p>
<p>Service Academy graduates from the Naval Academy serve their country at the will of the President. KPers who chose when, where, and how much they work, who don’t face a possible firing squad if they decide to quit, simply have a job. And yes, if I were being forced to divide them into bus-driver-like and not-bus-drive like, guess which pile the KP grad working on a cruise ship out of Miami would be tossed. Just the way I feel. </p>
<p>And OBTW, some of the finest officers with whom I have served, graduated from KP.</p>
<p>Complete ignorance returns after a nice 2 or 3 week layoff.</p>
<p>Luigi, </p>
<p>give it a break, last I checked this was a USNA board, not the cheerleading section of the MMA. The comments and observations made by 69 are as legitimate as any others posted about this question, perhaps more so given his experience, he may not sugar coat his repsonses, but nothing he's said in the above post can justify you response</p>
<p>Last I checked this wasn't a forum closed to opposing points of view, right? He has his opinion, and certainly I can state mine as well. Tell someone else to "give it a rest", I'll post about it all I want.</p>
<p>Anyone who refers to a United States Merchant Marine Academy graduate who goes to sea in the transportation industry as a "sell out" and a "glorified bus driver" is ignorant and disrespectful to those who serve in this manner.</p>
<p>Sugar coat it any other way you wish, but the fact remains that he has no respect for a KP graduate who doesn't join his precious haze gray cruise line. Or any other branch for that matter, given his thinly veiled insults of West Point and the Air Force Academy scattered throughout the forums.</p>
<p>I have no respect for anyone who posts such inflammatory things, no matter who they "claim" to be. I'll point out hypocrisy no matter the source.</p>
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Last I checked this wasn't a forum closed to opposing points of view, right? He has his opinion, and certainly I can state mine as well.
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<p>if you had the sense to stop there I could agree with you, going down the path of name calling has little to do with expression of a point of view, while we all may lapse into such behavior when our buttons are pushed it's every bit as ignorant and disrespectful a behavior as anything that has apparently bothered you. If you want this board to work for the kids that come here to ask questions and for the mids that thankfully have returned and contribute, you'll give it a rest (actually I said give it a break but...a rest will do)</p>
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Luigi, I think our difference here might be the definition "to serve". Are you saying the ship driver who delivers the lead based painted toys from China to us for Christmas is "serving"? If this is true, I also assume the truck driver who delivers the toys to Toys 'R Us is also serving. And we cannot stop there, the fork lift driver who unloads the truck also fits into this category, as does the temp who unpacks the box, the stock room person who puts it on the shelf, and of course the sales clerk who rings up the sale. Again, can we stop here or should we also include the night clean up crew who also serve a vital mission. Now, compare this scenario to a young Army Lt in Iraq today who is getting ready to take his squad on a night insertion. To me, he is serving, the remainder simply have a job.</p>
<p>At the end of the day . . . regardless of how USMMA compares to USNA . . . the taxpayers should not be subsidizing a student's entry into private industry.</p>
<p>Keep the training the same, i.e. keep the year at sea and engineering focus that USMMA has, but REQUIRE that graduates take an active duty commission OR that they repay a greater portion of the costs associated with their education. Perhaps the active duty component could be directly tied to reimbursement ,i.e. from 100% underwritten for five years decreasing to 20% underwritten [80% reimbursement] fo rtwo years of service.</p>
<p>My beef is with those who choose [and it is an entirely correct choice under current law] to take get what everybody argues is as good an education as I have gotten and then get to make a bunch of money in private industry. Given current law, there is nothing wrong with this; but, if USMMA graduates are truly interested in serving their country, they could do for less than $10k a month.</p>
<p>I agree with what 69 is saying for the present, but in the past the MM's definitely "served". During WWII, the USMM had the highest fatality rate among any service branch (about 4%), most of them aboard Liberty ships.</p>
<p>Of course most of this was in '41 and '42 before USMMA was established in 1943 but you get the point.</p>