<p>Sakky, I don't know why. The person I got this info from was a very good source. :)</p>
<p>Sakky, nice non-answer. Since I asked the question that you made an attempt at answering, I'll be the first to say that I don't trust the grad rankings just as much as I don't trust the undergrad. Now that we have that out of the way, could you please show me the data that shows why Cal dropped so many spots in so few years. If you believe in the rankings then you believe that in the mid 90's Cal was top 15 school, yet in the late 90's/early 00's it was the 27th best school. So please show me what drastic changes occurred during those years that made Cal drop so many spots.</p>
<p>the <a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm#ucsf%5B/url%5D">http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm#ucsf</a> is very inaccurate, it only includes people who let the med schools release their decision to Berkeley. Acording to the AMA website more then 500 people applied to med school from berkeley.</p>
<p>
[quote]
the <a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm#ucsf%5B/url%5D">http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm#ucsf</a> is very inaccurate, it only includes people who let the med schools release their decision to Berkeley. Acording to the AMA website more then 500 people applied to med school from berkeley.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yet I don't see why this would portray the information inaccurately. What you are basically saying is that the data is skewed - that those Berkeley premeds who chose to release their data back to Berkeley were somehow unrepresentative of all Berkeley premeds. Why would that be the case? The only way this could explain the data is if Berkeley premeds who had low GPA's, but nonetheless still got admitted into medical school, disproportionately chose not to release their data to Berkeley. Why would that be the case? If you have a bad GPA and you still get into med-school, why wouldn't you want to tell Berkeley about it? Hence, I don't believe the data is skewed. </p>
<p>Secondly, even if the Berkeley data is skewed, then so would the data from Princeton, Duke, and any other school. After all, the Princeton data also reveals only that information about Princeton premeds who chose to release their data to Princeton. Princeton can't force its students to release data if they don't want to release it. Neither can Duke. So if the Berkeley data is skewed, so is everybody else's data, and hence it's a wash. The numbers are different, but the relative positions are still the same - Berkeley premeds still require HIGHER grades than do premeds from other schools to get admitted. That is, unless the Berkeley data was MORE skewed than the Princeton or Duke data. But why would that be the case? </p>
<p>
[quote]
could you please show me the data that shows why Cal dropped so many spots in so few years.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're the one that talked about the historical rankings, not me. So why are you asking me for the data that you obviously have? </p>
<p>And to answer your question, it's simple. USNews changed their methodology, hence causing the numbers to shift. And yes, that caused a rather precipitious drop in Berkeley's rankings. But note, not ALL public schools dropped the way Berkeley did, and certainly none of them dropped at the rate that Berkeley did. In fact, while Berkeley dropped from 16 to 23 in a 2-year span, the University of Virginia actually improved from 22 to 17 in that 2-year span. Michigan actually went from 24 to 21 during that span. I remember during those 2 years how people at UC were complaining that USNews was screwing over public schools. Yet you didn't hear the people at Virginia or Michigan complaining too much, obviously. It was only the people at UC who were complaining. </p>
<p><a href="http://thecenter.ufl.edu/usnews_pub.xls%5B/url%5D">http://thecenter.ufl.edu/usnews_pub.xls</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
If you believe in the rankings then you believe that in the mid 90's Cal was top 15 school, yet in the late 90's/early 00's it was the 27th best school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The presumption in your question is that Cal deserved to be a top 15 undergraduate program in the first place, and then unjustifiably lost that place in a ranking methodology change. I would argue that it is entirely possible that Berkeley should have never had such a lofty ranking in the first place. Who's to say that Berkeley really deserved such a high ranking for its undergraduate program in the first place. Just because you say so? Remember, we're talking about the undergraduate program here, not the graduate program. </p>
<p>Secondly, I would also turn the question around. After bottoming out at #27, Berkeley quickly rose to being #20 again, in 3 short years. Why? Can you tell me what Berkeley did in those 3 years to merit an increase of 7 ranking points? I don't think you can. Nobody can. Once again, it was a methodology change, but this time, one that favored Berkeley. So why do you seem so fixated on the drop in ranking points, but not on the recovery? If you want to denounce the volatility of the ranking, you should be denouncing with the same intensity ALL examples of volatility, even that which favors Berkeley. So if I see next year that Berkeley has shot back into the top 15, then I want to see you come back here and denounce the ranking for doing that, and curse the methodology change that has boosted Berkeley so unjustifiably.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The area around Cal is NOT ghetto.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I'll put it to you this way. I've personally been mugged once, by 4 guys in front of Bongo Burger on Dwight. I've had my car broken into twice. A friend of mine once had his car stolen. </p>
<p>It is true that Berkeley is not as bad as, say, East Oakland. Or the San Francisco Tenderloin. But that's not saying much. Those are truly ghetto areas.</p>
<p>Here is Money Magazine's Quality of Life tool. Notice Berkeley's crime rating.</p>
<p>"The presumption in your question is that Cal deserved to be a top 15 undergraduate program in the first place, and then unjustifiably lost that place in a ranking methodology change." Where did you get that? You're not the best listener, are you? My argument, like the president of stanford's, is that the rankings are harmful. I would say the same thing if Cal was ranked 10th this year or ranked 35th. </p>
<p>"After bottoming out at #27, Berkeley quickly rose to being #20 again, in 3 short years. Why? Can you tell me what Berkeley did in those 3 years to merit an increase of 7 ranking points?"</p>
<p>No, I can't, but I'm not the one who puts any credence in these rankings, so you're just further illustrating the point that I'm trying to make.</p>
<p>And as far as what you said about getting mugged, why don't you just move away? You obviously feel that the area is unsafe and the school is less than great, so why are you still hanging around? Berkeley, like anyt city of 100,000 people, will have its bad neighborhoods, but I'd imagine that the per capita wealth and level of education is much higher than most other 100,000 population cities, and to come out here and try to scare people is just irresbonsible on your part. If the most dangerous place you've ever lived in is Berkeley then you shouldn't be complaining because you've had a safe upbringing. I don't think I've ever run into a more negative, naysaying, argumentative person on these boards. You must be a blast at a party.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Where did you get that? You're not the best listener, are you? My argument, like the president of stanford's, is that the rankings are harmful. I would say the same thing if Cal was ranked 10th this year or ranked 35th
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I'll be checking through the posts to see your complaints about how USNews obviously blew it when they ranked Haas 6th this year, when it used to be in the mid-teens a short while ago. Oh wait, I guess you never complained about that. I see. </p>
<p>
[quote]
No, I can't, but I'm not the one who puts any credence in these rankings, so you're just further illustrating the point that I'm trying to make.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Allright, I'm going to remember you said that. So when somebody comes along talking about how Berkeley is a great school because USNews ranks them highly in such-and-such department, I want to see you get in their face about it by informing them that the USNews rankings are harmful and meaningless. Otherwise you're just engaged in a la carte outrage.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And as far as what you said about getting mugged, why don't you just move away? You obviously feel that the area is unsafe and the school is less than great, so why are you still hanging around?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't worry, I ain't hanging around anymore, and I haven't been for awhile. </p>
<p>
[quote]
...to come out here and try to scare people is just irresbonsible on your part.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, that's responsible. So basically you just don't want people to know about the crime around Berkeley, is that it? So you think it's better for people to come to town and not know what can happen? I got mugged, my friend got his car ripped off, a girl got shot, but we shouldn't talk about that because people might get scared? So basically you just want to sweep crime under the rug. </p>
<p>You know what's more scary than talking about getting mugged? It's actually getting mugged. THAT is scary. </p>
<p>
[quote]
If the most dangerous place you've ever lived in is Berkeley then you shouldn't be complaining because you've had a safe upbringing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have lived and worked in far more dangerous places, to be sure. But that doesn't change the fact that Berkeley is not exactly the safest place in the world. To pretend otherwise is to simply be irresponsible. And to not want people to even talk about the crime in Berkeley is just foolish. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't think I've ever run into a more negative, naysaying, argumentative person on these boards. You must be a blast at a party
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ad hominem attacks? Are you aiming to get banned again?</p>
<p>If I may interject, aren't the graduate school rankings for USNews based purely or largely on peer review as opposed to the undergraduate rankings that consider a dozen or so parameters? This at least appears to be true in the non-professional schools. I may be entirely incorrect (I'm not well versed in USNewsology), but, if this were true, wouldn't the argument be reduced to discussing which methodology more accurately approximates a university's "goodness"? In the undergraduate rankings, Berkeley received a 4.8 in the "Peer Assessment" score, as opposed to Harvard's and Princeton's 4.9. Hence, if undergraduate rankings were calculated in the same manner as graduate, the distinction between Berkeley and Ivies would be minimal. I apologize if my posit is build upon false assumptions. Am I right?</p>
<p>Sakky, that's not ad hominem (which is the most over used word on cc) because the issue that I have a problem with is you're negativity, which is what I commented on. And you can look at my old posts until your heart is content, but I've never complained about the ranking of Haas because 1) I didn't know what its previous rankings were and 2) I'm not in business school and could really care less what the rankings are. As far as your fear mongering, lets say you are planning on moving to a small town in iowa. Lets say that this town has had one murder and two robberies in the last 10 years and is incredibly safe by all standards. Now, lets say you get into town not knowing any of this and run into the first person you see and ask him how safe or dangerous the town is. If he says, "man, some guy got shot and killed and two other people were robbed here!" Would that be an acurate way of describing the town? I know Berkeley has much more crime than the town in that example, but its the same basic principle. If you really think that Berkeley is that scary of a place then by all means yell it from the mountain tops, but I think people should know that its really not that bad. I'll be the first person to say that there are more homeless people here then anywere I've every been and that many of those homeless people are mentally ill and have a tendancy to scream at passersby, but I've never heard of anyone being physically harmed by them, so I don't think I warrents a big scary speach to a bunch of 18 year olds that are probably already scared about moving to a new place.</p>
<p>Sakky: Those crime ratings are for the City of Berkeley, correct?</p>
<p>In terms of on-campus safety, UC Berkeley has not had a homicide in more than 10 years, I believe (according to the UCPD Officer who spoke to students). This includes the campus, facilities associated with the campus (unless otherwise noted), and the resident halls (listed seperately). No doubt that the City of Berkeley has 131 rating for personal crime risk and 138 for property risk.</p>
<p>Theft and burgalary constitute the majority of campus crimes. However, homicides, manslaughter, robbery, sexual assualt do not constitute a large portion of crimes. True, it is better to have zero across the board, but it is in an urban area.</p>
<p>The statistics used come from: <a href="http://police.berkeley.edu/safetycounts/%5B/url%5D">http://police.berkeley.edu/safetycounts/</a></p>
<p>The Clery Act requires the college campuses in California to release this data.</p>
<p>this is from the link sakky posted
( <a href="http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/37182.html%5B/url%5D">http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/37182.html</a> )</p>
<p>it seems like most other college towns are worse
i've listed town name , Personal crime risk, Property crime risk in that order
where "100 is national average; lower is better"</p>
<p>berekely 131 138
new haven 309 255
boston 308 184</p>
<p>princeton seems to be the safest
princeton 6 48 !</p>
<p>no homicides. but there are suicides.</p>
<p>like jumping 10 floors off the ugly Math building.</p>
<p>It's a myth that people jump off of Evans Hall regularly. It happened a couple times, but hasn't in about 5 years. That means that no member of any undergraduate class has lost anyone to suicide from Evans.</p>
<p>I wonder if sakky is completely devoid of Cal spirit. I bet he's never even uttered "Go Bears"...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky, that's not ad hominem (which is the most over used word on cc) because the issue that I have a problem with is you're negativity, which is what I commented on.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First off, I wouldn't call it 'negativity'. I call it realism. Look, people should realize that not everything at Berkeley is perfect, and in particular, there are some things about the place that aren't good. If you can't handle that fact, then you're in for a rude awakening. </p>
<p>But even so, let's say that I am negative. So what? I believe everybody here on CC is allowed to express their opinions in the way they want to express them. Are you saying that negative opinions are not allowed to be expressed on CC? Why even have a discussion board if only certain opinions are allowed to be expressed, but not others? </p>
<p>
[quote]
I know Berkeley has much more crime than the town in that example, but its the same basic principle. If you really think that Berkeley is that scary of a place then by all means yell it from the mountain tops, but I think people should know that its really not that bad. I'll be the first person to say that there are more homeless people here then anywere I've every been and that many of those homeless people are mentally ill and have a tendancy to scream at passersby, but I've never heard of anyone being physically harmed by them, so I don't think I warrents a big scary speach to a bunch of 18 year olds that are probably already scared about moving to a new place.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Did I make a big scary speech? I don't think so.</p>
<p>On the other hand, people should know that there is in fact crime at Berkeley. And I agree with you - it's not usually from the homeless. But the crime is still there. I didn't get mugged by the homeless. But I still got mugged. People should know that crime, including violent crime, happens. </p>
<p>
[quote]
it seems like most other college towns are worse
i've listed town name , Personal crime risk, Property crime risk in that order
where "100 is national average; lower is better"</p>
<p>berekely 131 138
new haven 309 255
boston 308 184</p>
<p>princeton seems to be the safest
princeton 6 48 !
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Aren't you being a little unfair in quoting Boston? The only university of note that is in Boston is BU. BC is located in Chestnut Hill (a relatively safe suburb), and MIT and Harvard are located in Cambridge. Cambridge isn't exactly swank, but it's safer than Berkeley. </p>
<p>Cambridge, MA: 127/102</p>
<p>
[quote]
I wonder if sakky is completely devoid of Cal spirit. I bet he's never even uttered "Go Bears"...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If I really hate Berkeley, then why am I always giving props to the Berkeley graduate programs? If I'm just a hater, then shouldn't I be hating ALL of Berkeley?</p>
<p>"First off, I wouldn't call it 'negativity'. I call it realism." Well, I call it cynicism.</p>
<p>"Look, people should realize that not everything at Berkeley is perfect" I've never met anyone that has said berkeley is perfect. Most people that have ever been here can rattle of many, many imperpections in the fair city.</p>
<p>"I believe everybody here on CC is allowed to express their opinions in the way they want to express them. Are you saying that negative opinions are not allowed to be expressed on CC?" No, you're free to say whatever you like. And I'm free to disagree. </p>
<p>"Did I make a big scary speech?" Are you kidding? THATS ALL YOU DO!</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Did I make a big scary speech?" Are you kidding? THATS ALL YOU DO!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh really? So when I go around talking about how the Berkeley PhD programs are top-notch, is that scary? Who's getting scared by that? When I talk about the strength of the Berkeley MBA program, and the top-notch community and personal contact you can get from it, does that cause shivers down your spine? When I tout Berkeley's strong graduate engineering programs, does that fill you with fear?</p>
<p>I have done all these things and more, and I don't seem to recall anybody getting scared by that.</p>
<p>Don't people who are in the PhD programs and the masters programs also live in the dangerous town of Berkeley? Or are they bussed in from Marin?</p>
<p>Sure do. And the people who go to Yale Law live in the ghetto too. And the people who go to UCSF Med aren't living in Club Med, no pun intended.</p>
<p>But the point is, Berkeley has crime. People should know that. I certainly know it. We shouldn't pretend that crime doesn't exist. If anybody says that you don't have to worry about crime at Berkeley, they're lying.</p>
<p>I don't know about you guys, but I for one don't think crime exists. I think its all made up. I don't worry about crime (because it doesn't exist), so I sleep with my door open, leaving my wallet and television on my front steps. Nothing has happened so far. Yeah, none of my friends or classmates think crime exits either. Life is great. Life is 100 percent safe. Wait, I'm reading Sakky's post...Oh my god! Crime does exist! Thanks for bringing this to all of our attentions.</p>