USNews Top 100 Liberal Arts College - Merit v. Need Only

Parents Forum
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<p>corunnerdad, LOL. Your "secret school" is safe with me. No one reads this stuff anyway.;)</p>

<p>As to IWU, I found that IWU looked really good EXCEPT- man, they sure do have a lot of instate kids (over 80% according to CB) . That spooked my kid who was wondering whether it would be car-less her and the exchange students on weekends. It was also a consideration at Centre and Hanover and somewhere else I can't remember.</p>

<p>D wanted everyone to stay on campus at all the small breaks and all the weekends . She felt that if everybody was from within 200 miles that may not happen. It is overcome at some schools but not others. The Hanover adrep said "Don't expect anyone on campus Mother's Day". She applied anyway because she was convinced that most weekends wouldn't be like that.</p>

<p>But the near @ 80% (77% I think) number OOS at Rhodes was a HUGE plus in her mind.</p>

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<p>curmudgeon- As regards the criticism of your list, I, for one, know how you feel. "You can please some of the people some of the time." I've found it useful. -Thanks</p>

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<p>srinaldi - My son is an OOS at William & Mary - they have virtually no merit money for OOS students - as far as I know, they only offer a few small scholarships of around $2000 for highest ranked applicants. They are not very generous with aid for OOS either. My son is very happy there but over the past year I have wondered about our decision to pay high OOS tuition (private school level plus travel, etc) for a state school. WM is a wonderful state school but it does suffer from some typical state school problems. </p>

<p>Gettysburg is another story. We were actually asked what it would take to get our son to attend Gettysburg. He had excellent SATs, good grades, but not an unweighted 4.0, and lots of ECs. Unfortunately, we were not excited about Gettysburg at the time. My son has a friend there now, though, and he absolutely loves it. Gettysburg is private and I think a strong candidate (one whose stats are in the upper 25th percentile for that school) that appeals to Gettysburg has a better chance of receiving some merit money.</p>

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<p>"One other thing to consider financially - if you're starting at $44,000 all in vs. $37,000, it doesn't take an 800 on SAT Math to figure out that the lower priced school could give less aid and still be more financially viable."</p>

<p>I agree with this comment. Most books about college admissions/finance tell you not to look at sticker price. It was our family's experience that the lower sticker price schools ended up being most affordable to our family, even with a less generous merit scholarship (BTW, It was not always less generous at the less expensive schools). I do think that for some families the 44,000 school is more affordable. I am sure that the results vary depending upon family assets and student stats. In fact, one of the least expensive privates that my son applied to, offered my son the most generous merit scholarship (13,000 as a merit scholarship and admission to their honor's college).</p>

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<p>Illinois Wesleyan University, as I posted earlier on this thread offered my D2 - merit aid in the amount of 7,500. We are from NJ and were very impressed with IWU's campus, terrific library and general all around excellence. Out D2 concern (and ours aa well) was that 80% of the students were from Illinois.</p>

<p>Talking to the Director of Admissions, he acknowledged that for the longest time, IWU had concentrated their recruiting efforts in Illinois (or more specifically within 300 miles of Bloomington). Our D2 found this college on her own, surfing the 'net. However, from our conversations with the D of A at IWU, it is clear that they are seeking a broader geographic student body. It will take time, however, as Carmudgeon's excellent posting has tried to demonstrate (IMO) the search for Merit Aid is individualistic as to your child's interests in studies etc, and recognition of what are the different (and individualistic) colleges wants and needs?</p>

<p>IWU want to broaden their student base geographically. If you are from the West or East Coasts, South of Illinois etc, and your child has decent SAT's and good GPA's (but not great: our D2 GPA was 3.4+ unweighted and SAT was 1250) - well chances are very good that IWU might have some Merit Aid available for your child.</p>

<p>D2 and her parents went out in April for a final look see and IWU's campus on Sunday looked rather empty (It was around EAster and was a beautiful day, but D2 had the same concern as expressed earlier that it was a suitcase college.</p>

<p>That factor is one of many to be balanced in your final selection. Since our D2 was offered merit aid at 6 colleges, that IWU was one of her two final schools should give IWU the positive impression that it had made on our D2. </p>

<p>Anyone reading this should IMO recognize the fact that your child is 'on the market' for just this one year. Any college that fits his/her needs academically, socially and in whatever other factors matter to your child AND gives some Merit Aid untied to Financial Aid is a blessing.</p>

<p>Once you have the acceptances and the Merit/Financial Aid packages in hand that is the time to select or reject. This posting by Carmudgeon is giving you the benefit of her D's search and that of others like our D2. What the reader does with this IMO very valuable data is up to the reader.</p>

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<p>srinaldi: We are from NJ and your child's hours dictate of 3-4 hours or 5-7 hours is a bit off the mark.</p>

<p>Our D2 is going to school in Minnesota (her choice), an hour to the airport (for us either Philly or Newark), and hour wait at the Arpt, 2 hours flight, getting out of arpt (much easier than Newark - about the same as Philly) and in one hour we are at her college. Five hours from home, give a one hour window on either end and in 7 hours from our house we are at her college. Buy the tickets early enough and you have the lowest rates.</p>

<p>Now the school's location might not be as convenient, but factually unless their is some family interaction that is continuing and important to your child, the colleges should be sought for other reasons they driving time IMO.</p>

<p>Let me give you an example. Grinnell is an excellent school, equal to or academically better than most of the LAC's in Conn/NY/NJ/Pa/Md.</p>

<p>BTW, I have had two sons graaduate from Lafayette (pa), my wife from Goucher(md) and another son from Allegheny (pa) all schools that fall with the time constraints of your child.</p>

<p>Anyhow, Grinnell's overall costs (T/Fees/R&B) is easily $6 to 7,000 less than most of the schools within the hours limit. BUT, Grinnell also gives Merit Aid and is liberal on Financial Aid awards. </p>

<p>Now 4 years x $7.000 = $28,000 and if your child get only $5,000 in either Merit Aid or Grants (not loans) that is another $20,000.</p>

<p>NOw $48,000 + no interest charges on the $48,000 might be a bit better for your child and if he/she takes 10 extra r/t by plane to and from the college at $400 a trip, well $48,000 - 4,000 = $44,000</p>

<p>As I said, an example but in this search, you should not (IMO) allow such a limitation to govern. The school, what it offers to your child and her/his 'fit and feel' are vastly more important and if the finances are easier!</p>

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<p>


We have a "Bingo". :) If IWU wants good students from OOS, then IWU will use its institutional merit aid to accomplish that goal. If your kid helps them accomplish that goal, it is both an admissons plus AND a merit plus. It doesn't always have to be as dramatic as Dartmouth wanting a kid from Idaho to say "we have kids from all fifty states" but I can't think of a single selective college that doesn't quote the "how many states, how many foreign countries" stat at sometime during admissions.</p>

<p>(This reminds me of a great quote from the scariest man I have ever met - a law school prof of mine who made the prof on Paperchase look like Mr. Rogers. "If you want a particular job and you have some strings that you could pull, don't pull on those strings. YANK them till the prize falls out." Use what you got, folks)</p>

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<p>Not sure if anyone has mentioned DePauw yet, but, with 46% of their students receiving merit awards, and the average award being around $12,000, it is a very good bet for merit money. One of the things I particularly like about DePauw is their handy-dandy online merit award calculator that gives you an on the spot estimate of how much you're likely to receive. I wish more schools would follow DePauw's lead.</p>

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<p>Such a lengthy thread on merit aid would not be complete without an insightful observation from Williams College president Morty Schapiro that the big endowment schools offer substantial merit aid discounts to every student they enroll.</p>

<p>For example, in academic year 2003/04, Williams College charged the average student $25,734 for tuition, room, and board (net of financial aid discounts). They spent $66,936 in per student operating expenses. Thus, every student received a "merit aid discount" of $41,202, funded by endowment spending.</p>

<p>Similarly, Swarthmore charged the average student a net of $26,585. Per student operating expenses were $68,308. Thus, each and every one of the 1462 students received a "merit aid discount" of $41,719 on top of any need-based aid discount.</p>

<p>So, when we talk about the "merit aid schools" using price discounting to attract top students, we should keep in mind that the two dozen or so massive endowment schools are using price discounting across the board to attract large numbers of the very top applicants.</p>

<p>The next time the Mercedes dealership advertises a $68k luxury sedan for $27k, note crowd of customers flocking to the dealership.</p>

<p>There is a clear continuum of price points offered by American colleges and universities. Don't let the largely fictional list prices published by the schools cloud your understanding of the pricing tiers. Look at net per student charges and per student operating costs to get a clearer picture for each school: high cost/high price, mid cost/high price, mid cost/mid price, low cost/mid price, etc.</p>

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<p>Operating costs from one area of the country to the next can make your head spin as well. That is why the Midwestern schools have it over the coasts. Picking up the bill for a dinner out is half the cost or better in Appleton versus Berkeley. And then to top it off, my sense of well-being when walking around elegant shaded streets, my lack of clutching at my purse, was tripled over my earlier summer experiences when checking out the Berkeley Victorians. O.K. so it wasn't the dead of winter! The temps were in the 70s in the upper midwest. They told me I had missed the heat wave. I experienced it this year in California. Anyway, my son said he loves the dead of winter, its cleanliness and it is warmer for him because of the super insulation of his housing over ours at home on our Mediterranean island. From one who grew up on a coast and thought god's country was the Bay Area, I now think again! </p>

<p>As far as IWU goes, we sent out top student ever there from my school. He spent a year at Cambridge on their exchange program. Last time I talked with him, he was very satisfied in Illinois.</p>

<p>When I work with internationals seeking a good deal in the states, I am now pushing the south and midwest.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Anyhow, Grinnell's overall costs (T/Fees/R&B) is easily $6 to 7,000 less than most of the schools within the hours limit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Grinnell's real price (per student revenues after discounts) was $20,399 in 2004. That's about $5,500 less than Williams charged ($25,734).</p>

<p>Interestingly, Grinnell's per student operating costs were $20,000 lower ($46,615 versus $66,936). They are clearly NOT passing along the full savings from reduced operating costs to the consumer. That's one reason that their endowment has been growing through the roof. It's an extremely profitable school.</p>

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<p>InterestedDad's post talks about the "Cost to the institution" of educating a single student.</p>

<p>Well that is fine and mildly interesting if you like statistics and want to find some reason to praise the Ivies or some of the more selective colleges like Williams and Amherst. </p>

<p>I do not have any quarrel with the Ivies or the little Ivies. This thread is about Merit Aid and the cost to families of their child's college education.</p>

<p>Grinnell (only as am example, I am not a grad nor has any of my children attended Grinnell) has tuition costs combined with R/B and fees that are $6 to 8,000 lower than most of the LAC's on the East or California. Grinnell gives Merit Air to many (not all) of their students and give more grants and less loans to their Financial Aid students.</p>

<p>This means that Joe and Jane Parent has to spend less of their income/savings for their D/S to attend Grinnell than many other equal or similar Lac's on the East Coast or California.</p>

<p>Do I care if Grinnell's overall costs are lower or higher than College W or A or X. Not for one moment!</p>

<p>I care that the education of my child is excellent and at Grinnell and many other Mid Western Colleges give that excellent education at a considerably lower cost to the parents, then if the child attended an East Coast/California LAC </p>

<p>This is what I see is important about this thread and BTW, bully for Grinnell if then can give a child an excellent education, at a lower cost while increasing their endowment. Sounds like a win/win/win situation, child - good education, parent - lower bills, college - gets richer.</p>

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<p>No quibble from me about Grinnell. I recommend it highly to anyone interested in liberal arts colleges -- not because it's a financial value, but because it's an admissions value. In many cases, Grinnell will be a "match" where some of the comparable schools in high-demand locations will be a "reach". I've been pushing Grinnell to a nephew who is currently college-hunting.</p>

<p>I'm just pointing out that there are two components to establishing "value" -- the price you pay and the cost of the goods and services you receive.</p>

<p>There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a lower cost product at a lower price. Heck, I would buy a Honda over a Mercedes because the added value of the higher cost product does not justify the higher price to me. However, that decision does not mean that I think the Honda is the SAME product at a lower price than the Mercedes.</p>

<p>I also agree with you that it is important to consider individual pricing circumstances. For example, if I have to buy a plane ticket to travel tomorrow, I don't really care what kind of 30 day advance purchase deals the airline offers. Likewise, if a high income student is looking to maximize price discounts, then the list should favor colleges that offer more discounts based on "merit" than colleges that offer all of their price discounts based on "need". The tradeoff is usually less diversity on campus.</p>

<p>I still maintain that looking at the big picture cost/pricing analysis for each school you are considering can be instructive. For example, Haverford charges $2,300 more per student (after discounts) than Swarthmore, but spends $14,000 less per student. All things being equal (fit, acceptance letter in hand, comparable aid discounts) etc.), looking at these numbers can make a college choice a no-brainer.</p>

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<p>I am trying to figure out how Williams comes in at $25K per year when I see its all-in cost closer to $44K. Adding in need-based aid isn't much help for those of us who make too much money to qualify but still don't hobnob with Bill Gates and Tiger Woods. For my D, the difference is likely to be between a school like Williams at $44K and another school where the cost after a merit grant would be closer to $25K. That dang Mercedes better be worth an extra $76K - that's not exactly chicken feed to most of us mortals.</p>

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<p>corunnerdad:</p>

<p>That's the total revenues received for tuition, room/board, fees net of financial aid discounts divided by the number of enrolled students. It's what the "average" Williams student pays.</p>

<p>Obviously, the actual pricing structure mimics an airline. Some seats are sold for peanuts. Other flyers pay full fare. If you are full fare business class flyer writing a check for $42,000 at Williams, then your "merit aid discount" is only about $24,000 per year.</p>

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<p>I think I read somewhere that the tuition et all as it stands at close to 50k, is already heavily subsidized by the institution. I read somewhere that the 'real' cost of attending is around 70-80k.</p>

<p>Wow, we should all just live in Canada or something...</p>

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<p>interesteddad, In your absence I was making your argument on "merit aid" at Swarthmore and Williams. Many were not aware that such a thing existed. I showed them because I remembered your posts (I also credited you ;)).</p>

<p>Why do you feel Swarthmore would choose to provide those fantastic merit discounts rather than charge full freight to those with EFC's that could pay, thereby making it possible to fully fund without loans or workstudy the financial aid packages of all it's needy students (not just the poorest)?</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon:</p>

<p>I think that what we are already seeing with college pricing is a steady move to true progressive pricing. Essentially all of the list price increases we've seen over the last decade have gone towards supporting additional financial aid (need based at Swarthmore and similar schools.) That's why we now see half of the student body receiving need-based aid.</p>

<p>In fact, I read an article recently about long-term planning at Swarthmore. In the article, the member of the Board of Managers said that they have explicitly considered a pure progressive pricing structure -- increasing the list price to match the full cost of operations with offsetting increases in need-based aid. Market pressures are such that they have decided against that option for now. But, I think that's where we'll end up across a range of top-tier schools 20 or 30 years down the road. We'll just get there incrementally.</p>

<p>BTW, the whole "workstudy" thing is a red herring. Every Swarthmore student that I know about has some kind of workstudy campus job, whether they are on financial aid or not: admissions tours, library, science research assistants, writing peer tutoring clinic, science tutoring, coffee bars, or whatever. They all have a job and I think the college would continue to encourage and fund that regardless of financial aid implications. It's a good thing for college kids.</p>