USNWR 2009: Looking at the Data XXV (Yield)

[Professor101]

<p>

Seven years ago, Laissez-Faire did a study that is listed on CC showing Princeton, Stanford, Yale all with the exact same 25-75% SAT range that showed Princeton with a 69% yield, Stanford with a 64% yield and Yale with a 62% yield, which to me completely refutes the theory above of why Stanford would have a better yield. Looking at this study, it is amazing how acceptance rates have gone down and SAT avgs have gone up for the top 100 schools in the country in the last seven years.

</p>

<p>Gellino, that is still EDUCATED speculation because the reality is Stanford’s scores are lower. Please check the scores on College Boards.</p>

[wobudong]

<p>The common app, the solicitation of applications, the reality of Tufts syndrome, and the manipulation of waiting lists have made both yield and acceptance rates meaningless data for evaluating universities (actually they always have been worthless). The only people who care about yield and percentage of applicants accepted are members of the “my dog’s better than your dog” crowd.</p>

[the_prestige]

<p>gellino, do you have the same stats from that study for Harvard and MIT? (just to round out HYPSM stats)</p>

[Professor101]

<p>

The only people who care about yield and percentage of applicants accepted are members of the “my dog’s better than your dog” crowd.

Not necessary. People who specialize in education research or are just curious may be interested in this.</p>

[ilovebagels]

<p>

Most peer undergraduate schools that I know of with separate undergraduate colleges (e.g. Northwestern, Georgetown, Duke, Cornell, Columbia, UVa, Michigan, etc.) offer a similar ease in enrolling in courses across the entire university.

</p>

<p>For undergraduate schools, this is often the case. But few schools will so effortlessly allow undergrads to enroll in almost all of its graduate and professional schools–for which there is no equivalent undergraduate program. Can Cornell undergrads take courses in Cornell Law? Do tell.</p>

[GoBlue81]

<p>

It unfairly boosts Penn’s ranking in USNews (post #54 by ring<em>of</em>fire)

I don’t get it. How does ‘manipulating’ yield give Penn an unfair advantage with USNWR ranking? Did they put yield back into the equation again?</p>

[CayugaRed2005]

<p>

Can Cornell undergrads take courses in Cornell Law? Do tell.

</p>

<p>Yes, Cornell students can take lower-level courses in a professional school (law, vet, and management) with a professor’s approval. All you need to do is prove that it suits your academic interests and that your academic record to date has been satisfactory.</p>

[CayugaRed2005]

<p>

I don’t get it. How does ‘manipulating’ yield give Penn an unfair advantage with USNWR ranking? Did they put yield back into the equation again?

</p>

<p>Because it directly affects the acceptance rate. If Cornell enrolled as many students as Penn does early decision (as a percentage of its entering class), Cornell’s acceptance rate would fall 4-5 percent.</p>

[hallowarts]

<p>“Because it directly affects the acceptance rate. If Cornell enrolled as many students as Penn does early decision (as a percentage of its entering class), Cornell’s acceptance rate would fall 4-5 percent.”</p>

<p>Acceptance rate count for very little in the rankings. Furthermore, the real question here is could Cornell maintain the same quality of student body if they accepted more during ED. Since I highly doubt Cornell would defer/reject candidates that they saw as qualified, I don’t it’s really up to Cornell to accept more students. Of course they’ve already accepted the ones they deemed qualified. Same thing with Penn. Penn would only accept student that they’ve deemed qualified.</p>

[kshul4444]

<p>Also keep in mind that 2400+ kids are in each Penn class. By accepting almost 50% ED that still leaves over 1200 spots to be filled RD. This is the same size of Princeton’s entire class!! Penn is hardly being unfair to those who apply RD.
And did you ever just think that the evil conniving Penn Admissions officers are accepting such a high percentage of the class ED so as to ensure that a high percentage of the class will actually love Penn so much that it was their #1 choice? I hardly think that is unfair.
Either you didn’t get into Penn, or you think Penn somehow threatens Duke. It’s widely agreed that Penn>Duke. Your annecdotal evidence doesn’t do much in terms of convincing. Guess what. I knew someone who had a 2400, was president of his class, started a company with revenues in 6 digits, and he was waitlisted by Duke and got into every single Ivy. Does this convince you? No? Then please spare us your “proof.”</p>

[hallowarts]

<p>“It’s widely agreed that Penn>Duke”</p>

<p>Actually, I think it is more widely agreed that Penn = Duke = Columbia</p>

[Bescraze]

<p>depends who you ask some will say Penn=Columbia>Duke
Some will say Columbia>Penn>Duke
Others will say Columbia=Duke=Penn</p>

<p>No one would say Duke>Columbia or Penn though</p>

<p>Take from that what you want</p>

[gellino]

<p>

Gellino, that is still EDUCATED speculation because the reality is Stanford’s scores are lower. Please check the scores on College Boards.

</p>

<p>How is that educated speculation? When Stanford’s score range was the exact same as Yale and Princeton a few years back, their yields were all relatively in line. Why should it be any different now? The only inherently structural thing that has changed is elimination of ED at Princeton, which on the margin should help Stanford. I think you are grasping at something that isn’t there.</p>

<p>theprestige:

Harvard University. 1636, private, $32164; shares applicants most often withPrinceton, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Brown; 16818 applied, 12% accepted, 79%yield, middle half scored 1400-1580 SAT, 90% in top tenth of class, 370external National Merit Scholars (22.4% of class), 85% not fromMassachusetts, 96% of freshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 1st amongnational universities.</p>

<p>SECOND (3 schools)</p>

<p>Princeton University. 1746, private, $31599; shares applicants most oftenwith Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT; 13006 applied, 13% accepted, 69% yield,middle half scored 1360-1540 SAT, 93% in top tenth of class, 124 externalNational Merit Scholars (10.6% of class), 84% not from New Jersey, 98% offreshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 2nd among national universities.</p>

<p>Stanford University. 1885, private, $30939; shares applicants most oftenwith Harvard, Yale, Brown, MIT, Princeton; 18885 applied, 13% accepted, 64%yield, middle half scored 1360-1540 SAT, 87% in top tenth of class, 201external National Merit Scholars (12.6% of class), 61% not from California,98% of freshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 5th among nationaluniversities.</p>

<p>Yale University. 1701, private, $31940; shares applicants most often withHarvard, Princeton, Stanford, Brown, Univ. of Pennsylvania; 11947 applied,18% accepted, 62% yield, middle half scored 1360-1540 SAT, 95% in top tenthof class, 146 external National Merit Scholars (11.2% of class), 93% notfrom Connecticut, 98% of freshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 3rdamong national universities.</p>

<p>FIFTH (2 schools)</p>

<p>California Institute of Technology. 1891, private, $25476; shares applicantsmost often with MIT, Harvard, Stanford, California–Berkeley, UCLA; 2944applied, 18% accepted, 47% yield, middle half scored 1420-1570 SAT, 100% intop tenth of class, 38 external National Merit Scholars (15.0% of class),57% not from California, 92% of freshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank4th among national universities.</p>

<p>Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 1861, private, $31900; sharesapplicants most often with Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Yale, CornellUniv.; 8676 applied, 22% accepted, 55% yield, middle half scored 1400-1560SAT, 95% in top tenth of class, 103 external National Merit Scholars (9.9%of class), 90% not from Massachusetts, 97% of freshmen return; U.S. Newsselectivity rank 6th among national universities.

</p>

[the_prestige]

<p>thanks for posting that gellino.</p>

<p>

Harvard University. 1636, private, $32164; shares applicants most often withPrinceton, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Brown; 16818 applied, 12% accepted, 79%yield, middle half scored 1400-1580 SAT, 90% in top tenth of class, 370external National Merit Scholars (22.4% of class), 85% not fromMassachusetts, 96% of freshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 1st amongnational universities.</p>

<p>Princeton University. 1746, private, $31599; shares applicants most oftenwith Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT; 13006 applied, 13% accepted, 69% yield,middle half scored 1360-1540 SAT, 93% in top tenth of class, 124 externalNational Merit Scholars (10.6% of class), 84% not from New Jersey, 98% offreshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 2nd among national universities.</p>

<p>Stanford University. 1885, private, $30939; shares applicants most oftenwith Harvard, Yale, Brown, MIT, Princeton; 18885 applied, 13% accepted, 64%yield, middle half scored 1360-1540 SAT, 87% in top tenth of class, 201external National Merit Scholars (12.6% of class), 61% not from California,98% of freshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 5th among nationaluniversities.</p>

<p>Yale University. 1701, private, $31940; shares applicants most often withHarvard, Princeton, Stanford, Brown, Univ. of Pennsylvania; 11947 applied,18% accepted, 62% yield, middle half scored 1360-1540 SAT, 95% in top tenthof class, 146 external National Merit Scholars (11.2% of class), 93% notfrom Connecticut, 98% of freshmen return; U.S. News selectivity rank 3rdamong national universities.</p>

<p>Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 1861, private, $31900; sharesapplicants most often with Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Yale, CornellUniv.; 8676 applied, 22% accepted, 55% yield, middle half scored 1400-1560SAT, 95% in top tenth of class, 103 external National Merit Scholars (9.9%of class), 90% not from Massachusetts, 97% of freshmen return; U.S. Newsselectivity rank 6th among national universities.

</p>

<p>what’s interesting in looking at HYPSM data – at least at first glance:</p>

<p>the top “peer” schools (per shared applicants) that appear most frequently (outside of HYPSM itself of course):</p>

<ul>
<li>**Brown<a href=“3”>/B</a></li>
<li>**UPenn<a href=“1”>/B</a></li>
<li>**Cornell<a href=“1”>/B</a></li>
</ul>

<p>Noticeably missing are “Top 10” schools Duke and UChicago – you’d think that they’d appear at at least once (I was also surprised that Dartmouth and Columbia didn’t appear as a top applicant peer school at least once).</p>

<p>Finally – Brown, in particular, is hands down the strongest peer school in terms of shared applicants, showing up as a top HYPSM “peer” school 3 out of 5 times. As I’ve always said again and again, the “rankings” (such as USNWR) way, way underrate Brown.</p>

[GoBlue81]

<p>

Because it directly affects the acceptance rate. If Cornell enrolled as many students as Penn does early decision (as a percentage of its entering class), Cornell’s acceptance rate would fall 4-5 percent.

Let’s see. Acceptance rate makes up 10% of student selectivity which accounts for 15% of the overall score. So by ‘cheating’ on ED, Penn would have a 4-5% advantage over Cornell on acceptance rate. That is equivalent to:</p>

<p>0.10<em>0.15</em>0.05*100=0.075 point difference in the overall score</p>

<p>ED is more a tool for admissions to place the freshman class. I doubt if they really use it to manipulate rankings. Princeton used to take almost half the class through ED, yet did not hesitate to eliminate it outright.</p>

<p>p.s. Following your logic, schools without ED would have every right to complaint about “unfair USNWR ranking manipulation” by all the ED schools.</p>

[Professor101]

<p>

The only inherently structural thing that has changed is elimination of ED at Princeton, which on the margin should help Stanford. I think you are grasping at something that isn’t there.

gellino, here are the latest numbers (middle 50%). </p>

<p>Princeton:<br>
SAT Critical Reading: 690 - 790 98%
SAT Math: 700 - 790 98%
SAT Writing: 690 - 780 98% </p>

<p>Yale:
SAT Critical Reading: 700 - 800 92%
SAT Math: 700 - 790 92%
SAT Writing: 700 - 790 92% </p>

<p>Harvard:
SAT Critical Reading: 700 - 800 98%
SAT Math: 700 - 790 98%
SAT Writing: 690 - 790 98% </p>

<p>Stanford:
SAT Critical Reading: 660 - 760 96%
SAT Math: 680 - 790 96%
SAT Writing: 660 - 760 96% </p>

<p>Stanford is 50-100 points (total) below HYP, which is significant for top tier schools.</p>

<p>I think that the concept is very simple. Low scoring students have fewer number of choices and the school that admits them has a better chance of pocketing them.</p>

[BearCub]

<p>Brown is underrated in US News ranking system, but very underrated. It has more cross applicants with HYP than Dartmouth, Columbia, and Cornell simply because of its uniqueness such as the Pass/Fail system. People who apply to HYP sometimes do not want to apply to Dartmouth, Columbia, and Cornell simply because it is very obvious that HYP is superior compared to those three. But they apply to Brown because they simply want something different.
Also, Brown has no single department that really stands out. Unlike Cornell with its strong engineering program and Dartmouth’s Tuck. So, if I were to put Brown in the correct USNews ranking system, I would place it as number 13 or 14.</p>

[the_prestige]

<p>

Brown is underrated in US News ranking system, but very underrated. It has more cross applicants with HYP than Dartmouth, Columbia, and Cornell simply because of its uniqueness such as the Pass/Fail system. People who apply to HYP sometimes do not want to apply to Dartmouth, Columbia, and Cornell simply because it is very obvious that HYP is superior compared to those three. But they apply to Brown because they simply want something different.

HYPSM has cross applicants with each other + Brown, but Brown is special, the only reason people apply there is because of its Pass/Fail system? Does that make any shred of sense to anyone? Also, did you happen to interview every cross applicant between Brown / Cornell / Columbia / Dartmouth and HYP?</p>

<p>

Also, Brown has no single department that really stands out. Unlike Cornell with its strong engineering program and Dartmouth’s Tuck.

</p>

<p>Humanities are exceptionally strong at Brown which helps to explain why it ranks as one of THE strongest schools in feeding its students into Harvard Law and Yale Law School (generally ranking Top 5 right after HYPS):</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2997104-post25.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2997104-post25.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Oh, and its PLME program is also a standout for med students who are guaranteed a spot in Brown’s Med School. And as I’ve stated again and again, the top undergrad focused schools (i.e. NOT dominated by grad schools ==> possess a strong underg / grad student ratio) are Princeton, Dartmouth and Brown – (e.g. Harvard / Yale / Penn / Columbia? Grad schools definitely). And Brown generally ranks as one of the top schools for quality of life / happiest students by Princeton Review (alongside perennial top ranking schools such as Princeton and Stanford).</p>

[BearCub]

<p>“the only reason people apply there is because of its Pass/Fail system?”</p>

<p>I didn’t say that. Now if you read my post carefully, I said something about the Pass/Fail system is one of the few important things that makes Brown different from it’s peer institutions like Darmouth, Columbia, and Cornell.</p>

[ilovebagels]

<p>

depends who you ask some will say Penn=Columbia>Duke
Some will say Columbia>Penn>Duke
Others will say Columbia=Duke=Penn</p>

<p>No one would say Duke>Columbia or Penn though

</p>

<p>I’d say that’s a fair statement</p>