USNWR Rankings: 2007 vs 1997

College Search & Selection
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<p>uchicago met with usnews editors to "discuss" (ie scheme to manipulate data) how to improve its rank"</p>

<p>Chicago has always been considered a hot bed of intellectualism and scholars. Other schools hold it in highest esteem. It's unique enough that undergrads are taught by powerhouse profs and able to do serious research almost immediately. They have an amazing library, serious world class collections and have produced across the board much of what people consider serious thought....big law, economics, literary analysis, how to even write your research paper:)</p>

<p>For most anyone interested in Chicago, the USnews rankings are moot. They could be #15 and it's not going to matter a bit. They know the value of the school and the educational opportunity it presents. But yeah, some people felt that the school needed to pay attention to how it was ranked by usnews. Attention was paid and the school went right back to where it has almost always been..right there amongst it's peers.</p>

<p>May I add that it's amusing to watch certain Northwestern folk simultaniously dismiss the rankings as garbage even as they claim they was robbed, robbed I tell ya of their ranking. Get a grip, your school is something to be justly proud of, milling about and running down your 'competitors' is just ugly.</p>

<p>Waits patiently for the shrill 'only ugly nerds would ever go to Chicago' arguments to begin.</p>

<p>On topic: I'm guessing Penn slips a tiny bit.</p>

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<p>There is absolutely zero chance that they will get rid of their rankings. They make far too much money selling their annual college issue for them to consider that. It would be like Sports Illustrated getting rid of the swimsuit issue.</p>

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<p>That doesn't really mean anything loslobos. I am Jewish and live in a very Jewish area and I know plenty of very bright people who are going to YU. It's rated highly for a reason.</p>

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<p>"May I add that it's amusing to watch certain Northwestern folk simultaniously dismiss the rankings as garbage even as they claim they was robbed, robbed I tell ya of their ranking."</p>

<p>simultaneously is spelled with an e. and i think you mean to say they "were" robbed instead of they "was" robbed.</p>

<p>UChicago is well respected by the majority of academia, there's no doubt to that, but i wouldn't say they made a wise move when they decided to consult USNWR. most schools hold these rankings in contempt and many university presidents have written the editor to bring an end to the rankings, so UChicago's effort to exclusively speak to the people at USNWR in their advantage does not come across as an action of integrity for the rest of us.</p>

<p>i can objectively tell you this isn't something simply noted by NWU people, we actually had this discussion about UChicago and Wash U in my psychology class here when we were talking about college rankings.</p>

<p>"There is absolutely zero chance that they will get rid of their rankings. They make far too much money selling their annual college issue for them to consider that. It would be like Sports Illustrated getting rid of the swimsuit issue."</p>

<p>i agree. presidents from some of the most prestigious universities in the country such as Stanford and Harvard have written to USNWR, but the rankings still go on.</p>

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<p>Topofthegame, you got me on the spelling of simultaneously(congrats!), however, bonus points lost to you for not realizing 'we was robbed' was a snarky popular culture reference.</p>

<p>By the way i is generally spelled I unless you're expressing something ts elliotish:)</p>

<p>"i can objectively tell you this isn't something simply noted by NWU people, we actually had this discussion about UChicago and Wash U in my psychology class here when we were talking about college rankings."</p>

<p>Where's here? And seriously, are there really folk out there who feel that Chicago needs to 'cheat' to get into the top 10 or to be held as one of the top schools worldwide?</p>

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<p>"And seriously, are there really folk out there who feel that Chicago needs to 'cheat' to get into the top 10 or to be held as one of the top schools worldwide?"</p>

<p>-It is what it is. Chicago was ranked 6 spots lower last year, met with USNEWS, changed up some data, and voila, it's number 9!? For me, the last little bit of integrity the rankings had was called into question when that happened. If a school can meet with the people who create the rankings in order to devise a way to rise in them, then what's the point of having the process in the first place? Why not just let all schools manipulate data as they see fit? </p>

<p>I also don't know why you think it's a Northwestern vs Chicago situation. I think meeting with USNEWS to cheat the system is an abhorrent thing for any school to do, not just Chicago, nor do I think Northwestern was robbed of anything, let alone a few spots on the rankings. On the other hand, for Chicago, a school that seems to pride itself on being ‘different’ and ‘unconventional’, and pretty much in everything else it does, such a stunt is, to me, unbecoming.</p>

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<p>Judging by the rankings over the years, Chicago has always been a top 15 university and has typically hovered around #10. In fact, it was ranked #9 as recently as 2002, so I'm not sure what the big deal is. Whatever they may have changed actually didn't benefit them much as they're no higher than they've typically been.</p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>KK, if you look at Chicago's rankings since USnews beginnings it seems to have always been higher until just the last few years where it dropped from around 9ish to 11 to 15....where if I'm not mistaken it decided to actually give USnews ALL the data it was requesting. So, Chicago didn't 'cheat'...nothing 'abhorrent' happened, it just complied. Rather than be all ivory tower it decided to do exactly what it's peers were doing. Imagine that. They then rose to exactly where they traditionally have been. Furthermore, their rankings in the USnews now jives with the other big rankings out there that consistently place Chicago as a world class university.(And preceding the USnews rankings, Chicago has always historically been considered a top university....so placing Chicago at #9 shouldn't scream manipulation to anyone, it may not be everyone's cup of tea but it still deserves to be amongst it's peers)</p>

<p>And I don't think it's a Chicago/Northwestern thing. Anyone scanning any of these boards would soon see that Northwestern fans are very prickly as to where they see their school. They want to be peers of everyone ranked highly and yet they can't stop trash talking those same peers. Doesn't matter the school, compare it to Northwestern and watch the knives come out. Worse, try saying that whatever school is just as good but different. That seems to flip you guys out. And as far as this thread is concerned, it was Northwestern fans that first brought up Chicago 'cheating'. Ask yourself, would Northwestern's president feel that Chicago didn't deserve it's ranking?</p>

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<p>LOL, okay, I admit, from this blog report I agree Chicago has been quite nefarious:</p>

<p>"Michael Behnke, vice president for University relations and dean of College enrollment, says the jump from last year’s No. 15 ranking has two main causes. </p>

<p>One factor is a rise in graduation rate, from 87 percent reported in U.S. News last year to 91 percent this year. To explain this increase Behnke points to student surveys the University has conducted for the past several years, which show more students participating in extracurricular activities, foreign studies, and internships as a result of the University’s increased “investments in student life.” The University’s efforts resulted in “higher levels of student satisfaction,” which, Behnke says, translates into a higher graduation rate.</p>

<p>A second factor, according to Behnke, has to do with how the University fills out its forms. “We’ve paid attention to how U.S. News & World Report defines things versus how we do.” Now the U of C’s Common Core writing program counts as a writing seminar, increasing the University’s percentage of small classes. In previous years the University also underreported its per-student spending by filing library expenditures in a category other than educational expenses. This year library spending was taken into account."</p>

<p>Oh dear, someone must stop this evil plaque upon the land!</p>

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<p>“Furthermore, their rankings in the USnews now jives with the other big rankings out there that consistently place Chicago as a world class university.”</p>

<p>-So you’re saying that a school ranked at number 15 is not world-class…. I guess it sucks to be Brown in your mind…. </p>

<p>.“Anyone scanning any of these boards would soon see that Northwestern fans are very prickly as to where they see their school.”</p>

<p>-As are most students/alumni of any school…. Read just about any post made by Alexandre :rolleyes: </p>

<p>“They want to be peers of everyone ranked highly and yet they can't stop trash talking those same peers.”</p>

<p>-Having an opinion is not “talking trash” – just because you don’t agree doesn’t make what someone else says less relevant. Further, I don’t see why or how that would take away from the schools’ being peers. </p>

<p>“Worse, try saying that whatever school is just as good but different. That seems to flip you guys out.”</p>

<p>-There’s nothing wrong with comparing schools- or even with saying they are equal but different- but only if they actually ARE equal. Saying that most any top school is equal to Random State U is bound to get people riled up. Since few agree on exactly which schools are in fact ‘equal’, arguments are abundant.</p>

<p>“And as far as this thread is concerned, it was Northwestern fans that first brought up Chicago 'cheating'.” </p>

<p>-What’s wrong is wrong. If it’s not cheating, then I say let all schools do it. Let all schools rearrange data as they see fit.</p>

<p>“A second factor, according to Behnke, has to do with how the University fills out its forms. “We’ve paid attention to how U.S. News & World Report defines things versus how we do.” Now the U of C’s Common Core writing program counts as a writing seminar, increasing the University’s percentage of small classes. In previous years the University also underreported its per-student spending by filing library expenditures in a category other than educational expenses. This year library spending was taken into account.”</p>

<p>-This is EXACTLY my point. Rearranging data is such a manner is, to me, absurd and sets a bad precedent. Now all schools can call any classes they want ‘seminars’ and categorize random expenditures as ‘educational expenses’. It’s just plain wrong.</p>

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<p>If other schools are doing these things (seminars, library expenditures) and Chicago has not been, how exactly is Chicago committing a crime by finally following suit? In fact, it would be a crime to the rankings themselves if Chicago weren't reporting information in the same manner as other universities.</p>

<p>Does Northwestern not count seminars as classes and include library expenditures in educational spending?</p>

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<p>“Judging by the rankings over the years, Chicago has always been a top 15 university and has typically hovered around #10. In fact, it was ranked #9 as recently as 2002, so I'm not sure what the big deal is.”</p>

<p>Chicago has been ranked 11-15 about just as much as it has been ranked 5-10. The fact that you may believe that it is now ‘in the spot it deserves’ doesn’t change the fact that the school had to meet with USNEWS to do it. If the school was ranked number 9 in 2002, then what was it reporting incorrectly from 2003 to 2005/6? Did people in the university all of a sudden not know what counted as seminars and academic expenses????? Or could it be that its peers were getting relatively stronger?</p>

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<p>Chicago's average ranking is 10.59.</p>

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<p>“If other schools are doing these things (seminars, library expenditures) and Chicago has not been, how exactly is Chicago committing a crime by finally following suit?”</p>

<p>-Yes, I’m sure it was JUST the University of Chicago that has been getting it wrong for the past few years…. </p>

<p>“In fact, it would be a crime to the rankings themselves if Chicago weren't reporting information in the same manner as other universities.”</p>

<p>-IF Chicago were the only school not reporting the data correctly, then yes, that would be a crime to the rankings. However, I honestly doubt that could possibly be the case. </p>

<p>"Does Northwestern not count seminars as classes and include library expenditures in educational spending?”</p>

<p>-Ask the people who fill out the surveys…</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Yes, I’m sure it was JUST the University of Chicago that has been getting it wrong for the past few years….

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That would be beside the point. If the majority of its peers are doing these things, how exactly is Chicago wrong by doing the same? If anything, this supports the idea that Chicago should be ranked higher than #15 but was getting the shaft because its peers were reporting things and it was not.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ask the people who fill out the surveys…

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's a good escape, eh? You know I don't care enough to do something like that, just as much as I don't care that Chicago is ranked 9 instead of 15. These minute differences only matter to those that take the rankings as a serious numerical ordering of universities. In the end, Chicago has a raw score of 89, Cornell an 87, and Northwestern an 86. There should be no distinction between the quality of these schools, regardless of who's 9th or 14th.</p>

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<p>“Chicago's average ranking is 10.59.”</p>

<p>-Which is still 11-15, is it not? </p>

<p>“That would be beside the point. If the majority of its peers are doing these things, how exactly is Chicago wrong by doing the same? If anything, this supports the idea that Chicago should be ranked higher than #15 but was getting the shaft because its peers were reporting things and it was not.”</p>

<p>-Do you have any proof of this? The only thing here that is FACT is that Chicago met with USNEWS to raise its ranking. You can speculate about which schools have been reporting what until the cows come home, but unless you have any fact, it doesn’t make it so.</p>

<p>“That's a good escape, eh?”</p>

<p>-No. Unlike you, I’m not going to speculate about how any school fills out the surveys. </p>

<p>“These minute differences only matter to those that take the rankings as a serious numerical ordering of universities.”</p>

<p>-Therein lay the issue…. Many high school students and their parents read those rankings and get the impression they are the definite hierarchy of American universities- schools know this, Chicago included- and thus, it is to me, shameful for (any) school to rearrange data to move higher in the rankings. If anything it misleads those who know little about colleges.</p>

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<p>"No. Unlike you, I’m not going to speculate about how any school fills out the surveys. "</p>

<p>Actually KK, that's exactly what you are doing. Mere speculation.</p>

<p>"So you’re saying that a school ranked at number 15 is not world-class…. I guess it sucks to be Brown in your mind…. "</p>

<p>Err, nooo, that's not what I'm saying. In fact, in this very thread I stated that most Chicago fans really don't care where Chicago falls in the rankings...they know they're world class. They know the place Chicago holds in the world of education and are proud/happy about it.(Just like Brown students) Personally I think it's ridiculous to think that the students of the top twenty or so schools aren't comprised of the best and brightest irregardless of whichever school they attend. Saying that, there's simply no reason to make apologies for Chicago's ranking. Do they belong at #9? In fact, yes. </p>

<p>KK you may want to start actually reading other people's posts for reasons other than merely twisting words.</p>

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<p>“Actually KK, that's exactly what you are doing. Mere speculation.”</p>

<p>-Chicago met with USNEWS regarding its ranking. This is what I have said, am saying, and what I shall continue to say. There is nothing speculative about this; this is a fact. Moreover, I said I refuse to speculate about “how any school fills out the surveys”…. If you’re going to argue with what I’m writing, the least you can do is not misrepresent what I’m saying. Everyone’s entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts… </p>

<p>“most Chicago fans really don't care where Chicago falls in the rankings”</p>

<p>-But the university does. Otherwise it wouldn’t have met to get its rank changed. Again, this is what I’m saying. You can talk about what you believe Chicago ‘fans’ think all you want, but that still does not change the facts of the situation.</p>

<p>“Personally I think it's ridiculous to think that the students of the top twenty or so schools aren't comprised of the best and brightest irregardless of whichever school they attend.”</p>

<p>-“Irregardless” of what you think, the fact remains that the university met with USNEWS to change its rank. This is to me now, and always will be, wrong. Schools may be academically similar, but they are by no means the same. There may not be 'huge' differences between Harvard and Emory or Northwestern and Dartmouth, etc, but they do in fact exist. </p>

<p>“Do they belong at #9? In fact, yes.”</p>

<p>-In fact, no. See… I can just say stuff too…. </p>

<p>“KK you may want to start actually reading other people's posts for reasons other than merely twisting words.”</p>

<p>-Twisting your words???? You said:</p>

<p>“Furthermore, their rankings in the USnews now jives with the other big rankings out there that consistently place Chicago as a world class university.”</p>

<p>This CLEARLY implies that Chicago’s previous ranking did not “place Chicago as a world class university”. Either you didn’t mean what you wrote, or you didn’t understand what you were writing. Either way, I didn’t twist anything. Those are YOUR words</p>

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<p>I can see why one might be tempted to attribute reporting changes to shenanigans. When the rankings were new there were certainly plenty of them. But I think the level of suspicion expressed here is unwarranted.</p>

<p>Reporting standards for these things are not set in stone. Colleges vary in lots of things when they generate reports and data--do they roll all their required fees into tuition, or report them separately? Do they convert faculty appointments to 12 months? How do they count clinical faculty? Do they report outside foundation assets as part of the endowment? Do they include internationals when calculating URM percentages? Do they count off-campus sites in reporting square footage, or enrollment, or spending? Do they report net or gross square footage? The list could go on.</p>

<p>Questionnaires may be explicit in methodology for some questions, but they may not be precise about everything. Therefore, it's not unbelievable that a college might learn that its peers are reporting data in a different way, or that there is an unwritten 'standard' for how to answer questions--and alter its own future submissions to comply. </p>

<p>If such a change comes about from a meeting with USNews, what of it? USNews does outreach with a lot of colleges and universities.</p>

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<p>"If such a change comes about from a meeting with USNews, what of it?"</p>

<p>-There has to be a line, and to me, that line is crossed when colleges meet to discover ‘tricks’ to raise their rankings, plain and simple. Everyone may not agree with this, nor does everyone have to, but I’m going to continue to hold this view until either: all schools meet with USNEWS in the same manner, or none does.</p>