<p>lol @ Duke and Yale being > Stanford</p>
<p>Hint to keefer, xjis, others,
If you don't like reading my threads/posts, then don't. Move on as there is plenty of good stuff to be found here on CC. </p>
<p>If you decide to keep reading, but don't like the information that I am presenting, then stop targeting the messenger, get off your fanny, and start doing some research and posting of your own. </p>
<p>If you don't like the conclusions suggested by various data points that are presented, then find some of your own that rebut the ideas that you don't like. Quit loafin' and lose the entitled attitude that says that ABC College's place in the collegiate pantheon is impregnable and forever. </p>
<p>Finally, stop whining. You sound like a bunch of schoolgirls moaning, "oh, big bad hawkette, she's not agreeing with our view of the world. She must have an agenda." </p>
<p>brown man,
Wrong thread for the UCB vs Duke debate. Please keep that…over there. Thanks. </p>
<p>As for your point about the data and the linear conclusions of the USNWR rankings, I have made the point repeatedly that one should look at the data and ignore the rankings. In fact, I created six different threads recently dedicated to this. IMO, the objective data points themselves allow for comparison and thus one can make concrete judgments. The difficulty becomes in how one weights these data points and thus people can (and will) argue about the value of various metrics. I would agree with you if you countered that the individual applications are extensive and thus there is room for fluidity in the rankings.</p>
<p>I have to say that the top 7 listed schools (hawkette's list) would be my choice of universities to spend four undergraduate years. I'd put a couple of LACs up there as well.
The weakness of the TE metric is the same as that of the PA- how could these folks possibly know? Many of them are regarded by their own students as being out-of-touch with what's happening on their own campuses, particularly in the classroom.</p>
<p>Thanks, bclintonk--that's a very thoughtful analysis about how one might interpret the responses to that survey.</p>
<p>I think USNews was wrong to call it "teaching excellence," and we shouldn't perpetuate it by repeating that language here. The data is interesting, but it measures something other than excellent in teaching.</p>
<p>^ hoedown, USNWR didn't call the survey "Teaching Excellence", Hawkette did.</p>
<p>No, as it happens, hawkette is echoing the language from USNews itself. The cover of the 1995 issue says "The Finest Teaching: Where to Find It" and in the feature about the ranking, they claim that the schools are "tops in teaching." It was they, not she, who started what I believe is an erroneous label.</p>
<p>More problematic for me is why hawkette would put any credence in the survey results. She has, on numerous occasions, claimed that the people who answer the PA survey adhere to a cult-like system of false beliefs about quality; that they have an interest in perpetuating a long-standing, unfair pecking order amongst U.S. institutions; that they are a cabal of clueless, hopeless academics whose notions of prestige harm the rankings and prospects of legions of schools. </p>
<p>So why this bunch of folk is now trusted by hawkette to select institutions for teaching quality is a leap I haven't yet understood.</p>
<p>Maybe it's just me, but I really like these rankings. People are just ****ed that their schools aren't actually as good as they thought for undergraduates... Nobody ever said they are not good universities!</p>
<p>hoedown. This is easy to answer. Duke is ranked above most schools in this poll. That's all hawkette needed to see.</p>
<p>rjkofnovi, cornell is #18, that's all you needed to see right?</p>
<p>Interesting study of undergrads at UM.</p>
<p>apple2pie9. Not sure what you meant by that statement.</p>
<p>Dartmoose-</p>
<p>I wish more polls would focus on undergraduate teaching vs grad school "prestige". I think most people would look at this poll and say , "No S***, of course Brown and Dartmouth focus more on undergrads than Harvard." The people upset with hawkett's very good analysis, are the ones who drank the USNWR Kool-aid for these many years.</p>
<p>I see swish14. So I guess Brown and Dartmouth are ranked too high. After all USNWR says they are both top 20 schools.</p>
<p>stupid question from new user...what does BUMP mean?? When is it used?</p>
<p>Thanks for the article barrons. It was an interesting read.</p>
<p>
[quote]
what does BUMP mean?? When is it used?
[/quote]
BUMP means "bump"...it is used to "bump" your thread to the top of the list, usually to gain more readers/solicit more opinions.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There may be some truth to that, but it's also pretty clear that hawkette is just ****ed that her favorite schools are not held in especially high regard within the academic community as reflected in US News PA rankings, NRC faculty quality ratings, etc, and consequently she spends endless hours trying to come up with alternative data that boost her favorites.</p>
<p>Once read that BUMP stands for "Bring Up My Post".</p>
<p>There are differences in teaching ability among individual faculty but, on average, teaching doesn't differ much from one school to another (controlling for differences in student ability). If the teaching were really bad overall, students would leave in higher numbers. Retention rates and graduation rates are about what you'd expect given the caliber of students at different schools. </p>
<p>The way to find better teaching is to find schools with better students. Generally, faculty teaching rises to the level of student ability.</p>
<p>Again, we are concentrating on averages and aggregates rather than on variation.</p>
<p>Anybody who believes you can't load up your schedule with absolutely inspiring professors at Cornell (which isn't noted for teaching excellence according to an antiquated, flimsy survey) and that you are immune from bad teaching at Duke or Dartmouth (which is noted on the same survey) is being naive.</p>
<p>Just look at what happened at Dartmouth this past spring:</p>
<p>Dartmouth</a> students get e-mails from former teacher claiming disrespect - Boston.com</p>
<p>USNWR Rankings Adjusted for Teaching Excellence-More Relevant/Reflective for Duke Students</p>