UVA and cars

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
21

<p>I'd first ust like to say, yes you are one of those "squares."</p>

<p>While i don't want to get into a discussion of morals, breaking the law isn't always immoral, just as following the law isn't always moral.</p>

<p>Also, unless you can tell me you've never done anything immoral, or broken the law - then ****. I bet money you j-walk, speed, making rolling stops, and lie. Notice how some of those are breaking the law and arn't immoral, and some of those arn't breaking the law and are immoral. Who knows what else you could have done. BTW don't tell me you don't because thats just you lying, further proving my point.</p>

<p>As I stated initially - the driving while a first year thing is a bogus rule. There is no enforcement of it - as UVa and charlottesville and Albermarle county do not have anyone in charge of enforcing it. </p>

<p>In other words, chill the f out.</p>

22

<p>cavalier302 - As I said I know there are many students at UVA who think the Honor Code is a joke. You break laws and break promises openly and feel no remorse. That's your decision. I think you're wrong. If you were my friend I'd say it straight to your face, but I think we both know you don't care. You think it's funny and cool.</p>

<p>sv3a - I'm not going to repeat myself 43084 times. I'm not your ethics or philosphy professor. BREAKING THE LAW IN ITSELF is immoral in relation to the implied social contract. For God's sake, pick up some Cliff's Notes or something.</p>

<p>And yes, it is against the Honor Code. If you're caught drinking on campus and you are underage there will be campus consequences. Does it state implicitly that you shouldn't drink underage? As far as I know, it does not. Should it HAVE TO? No, I think the implication is clear.</p>

<p>jags861 - Firstly, you certainly don't know me at all, and your grasp of this concept is so tenuous that it almost gave me a headache trying to process your response. Something tells me that if you took this sort of stance in your applications you would not have been admitted. Something also tells me that you're aware of this, and don't care.</p>

<p>The issue of an implied social contract doesn't address lying to your mom about whether or not you've eaten your veggies, and the issue of "lying" itself could be a separate issue entirely. The way it relates to your status as a UVA student is that you are not allowed to lie on campus, in campus-related events, issues and events related to your academics, or in a situation where you represent the college. I'm sure they could stretch it in a few addition directions, but the college would not expel you because you told your best friend her new dress flatters her...when it doesn't.</p>

<p>Whether or not I break laws is IRRELEVANT because if/when I do break them, I'm in the wrong and I admit it. I don't j-walk, actually. I do not make rolling stops and chide people who do. At orientation I actually told my group that my #1 pet peeve is people who do not use turn signals in the turning lanes. When I speed it's going 47 in a 45, and I constantly attempt to monitor my driving. If I were pulled over (which I've never been) I would tell the cop I was breaking the law, I know I was wrong, and "thank you for doing your job."</p>

<p>Do I lie? Lying isn't illegal, as previously addressed, but I like to see myself as an honest person. Am I perfect? Hell no. I'm human being. Even Socrates himself (who established the social contract theory) was imprisoned because HE broke the law. Does any of this excuse your behavior? NO. You are not supposed to compare yourself to me, to celebrities, or to what "everyone else" does. Expect more from yourself.</p>

<p>Again-- just because no one sees you break a rule doesn't mean you didn't do anything wrong. Keep telling yourself that, it appears to be effective in assauging your sense of responsibility.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]
As I said I know there are many students at UVA who think the Honor Code is a joke. You break laws and break promises openly and feel no remorse. That's your decision. I think you're wrong.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>WOW. So because many students at UVa drink underage, they all have a complete lack of respect for the honor code? And because I implied that I enjoy a few brew-ha-ha's every once in a while, I break promises openly? That's such a toolish statement it boggles my mind. Hold on, I need a drink.</p>

24

<p>lololololololololololololololol</p>

<p>i think the point your missing is not that "no one sees you doing it," rather its that there is no one TO see you doing it.</p>

<p>also, i think you are being completely ignorant in your knowledge of immoral vs. the illegal. doing something illegal is doing something which is prohibited by law. doing something immoral is doing something - contrary to established moral or ethical principles. by your definition it would be immoral for a woman in iran to walk around outside without her burka because it breaks the law.</p>

25

<p>cavalier302 - Did you not sign a piece of paper when you began attending UVA in reference to the Honor Code? Do you seriously doubt that part of your pledge to the University was to not underage drink...especially considering that it's FORBIDDEN? You're on a board where UVA staff and faculty frequent, you're giving the impression that you're under 21 and admitting that you drink. That's not "open admission" to you? Sure seems like it to me.</p>

<p>I'm truly boggled here about the ignorance of the Honor Code. You cannot break a couple of rules every once in a while, or this rule every other day, or abide by this rule and break that one. You must abide by ALL CAMPUS POLICIES at ALL TIMES. University representatives don't leave a lot of room here for interpretation.</p>

<p>Did you represent yourself like this in your application for admission? What do you think the Deans would've thought if you'd spoken like this to them? Other University representatives? I highly doubt you'd have the balls to break the Honor Code in front of your professors, or other faculty or staff, or the students who enforce the code. You know you're wrong, and you'd probably conceal it.</p>

<p>jags861 - I can't discuss this issue with you because you are clearly uneducated on the philosophical topic of the "social contract." It's not MY definition. It is a concept developed by Socrates, Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, and others. An important element of this "social contract," especially in Socrates' case, was that the citizen is allowed to choose to leave the state. Muslim women in Iran are often forbidden from leaving, or killed if they reject the laws of the land. They are not necessarily subject to the "social contract" because it's not a democracy and the people do not have freedom of mobility.</p>

<p>Of course you'd know this...if you read Crito, Du Contrat social, or Leviathan, or any other text which discusses the idea.</p>

<p>Come on guys, if you're going to try and debate this...DO YOUR RESEARCH.</p>

26

<p>pizzelle, your naive view of the world is truly amusing. i realize you wish you lived in the world of the utopian world of the oneidas, but come on now, we A) live in the real world and B) you're blatantly wrong on a few things.</p>

<p>1) would be that underage drinking violates the honor code. it doesn't. Infact, I can point you to exactly where it says it doesn't. Outside of the door to the Wilson Hall large lecture room there is infact a piece of paper in a glass encasement that has a large write up about whether or not underage drinking violates the honor code. it doesnt</p>

<p>2) the whole idea of the social contract - which i must say you are a complete nerd for bringing up in the context of having a car your first year - has generally been discredited as a basis for any sort of governmental or political theory.</p>

<p>3) while i respect the honor code when it comes to the literal sense of lying (with regards to academics), cheating in general, and stealing even YOU must realize that you can't be expected to adhere to a system which is not enforced. For example at UVa, if underage drinking, or having a car your first year was so against the system, you would be kicked out of hte school. the fact is, you ARE NOT kicked out of the school for underage drinking, nor are you kicked out of the school for having a car your first year. The only honor cases ever heard of are with regards to academic dishonesty. If UVa expected people to follow the honor code the way you expect people to follow it - ALL they would have to do is send a dean to a frat party to check peoples ids. He could be throwing 300 people out of school every thursday, friday, and saturday night.</p>

<p>The fact is this - this "social contract" you speak of only works when there is some sort of authority behind it. At UVa there ISN'T any enforcement. </p>

<p>IT works like this. If you live in the United States you pay income taxes. Under "social contract" you're obligated to pay income taxes. If there was no IRS, no one would pay income taxes. The social contract only works if there is some sort of authority/government behind it.</p>

<p>I think you should transfer to bob jones university. They share your philosophy - AND they will enforce it. You'll fit in well there. At this pace you seem like you'll be having a horrible time at uva.</p>

27

<ol>
<li><p>It's not solely about the Honor Code, especially since this issue is not solely about underage drinking. It's not about a little piece of paper. It's not about a list of "10 things you can't do" in the back of your orientation packet. It's about knowing when something is NOT ALLOWED. You know it's NOT ALLOWED. It's illegal, it's forbidden, it's against the rules, it's against policy...however you want to phrase it, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO IT. Even if it's not expressly stated in the Honor Code that you aren't supposed to do it (neither is murder, neither is taking a crap on the basketball court) you still agree to NOT DO IT by the IMPLIED CONTRACT.</p></li>
<li><p>The social contract can't be "discredited," it's a belief system. You can't discredit someone's belief system. Calling me names doesn't make you look any more intelligent, and it doesn't make you any more right.</p></li>
<li><p>My morality and my system of ethics dictates that when something is illegal or against policy that it is WRONG to pursue that action even if you know no one will catch you. Even if it's the middle of the night on a lonely road in the absolute middle of the desert I would not run a red light. No one would see it. No one would catch me. There's no one around for miles. Hell, even if I got stopped the cop probably wouldn't do anything to me. I still wouldn't break the law. That is my system of beliefs. Call me a nerd, a loser, a square, a geek, a whatever. I don't live my life by your standards.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>And no, this situation is not analogous to the IRS completely disappearing because there IS a body in existence under which this violation falls. The Department of Parking and Transportation Services and the consequences for violation fall under University Motor Vehicle Regulations. The problem is that this particular violation is, I imagine, very difficult to identify because (as mentioned) someone could just park at a friend's place. Like most other University violations it relies on the willingness of others to control the behavior. Unfortunately the people doing/allowing the behavior are people like you, who certainly aren't going to call Parking and Transportation.</p>

<p>It doesn't matter how the University enforces the rule, if at all, or when. It's a rule. Under the implied social contract this is the only thing that matter. If we all started cherry-picking which rules and laws we agreed with and didn't agree with, society would fall into chaos.</p>

28

<p>I also don't see how my system of beliefs in ANY WAY indicates I should transfer to a Christianity university dedicated to instilling "Christ-like" behavior in its students. That just shows you don't get my argument at all.</p>

<p>Where's the open-mindedness? The willingness to listen to new viewpoints? The respect for others? Your response to me is to tell me I should leave the University? Frankly, I believe YOU are in the wrong place. This is certainly not what UVA was founded on, and CERTAINLY not what it is based on today, or claims to be. I'm more than willing to discuss and debate such issues with others. I would not respond with "lololololololololololololololol" and "I think you should transfer" just because I disagree with someone.</p>

29

<p>1) murder isn't against the honor code. nor is taking a crap on a basketball court. You can't be brought up on honor charges. Neither can you for underage drinking, you will be brought up under ujc charges. Stop using the honor code as an answer for anything and everything.</p>

<p>2) neither can scientology be "discredited." but if you want to believe that Xenu the alien warlord froze all the aliens who were overpopulating his galaxy, put them in dc-7 jets (with rocket engines of course), flew them to hawaii, dropped them in a volcano, nuked them, then the alien spirits took over the inhabitants of earth, and then xenu brainwashed us into believe everything we believe now (including the social contract), be my guest. it is a belief system afterall. it can still be wrong.</p>

<p>3) you still don't understand hte concepts that the law doesn't separate whats right from wrong or moral from immoral. it seperates whats legal from illegal. they are 2 different things. I can't argue with you until you read a dictionary. Do your research.</p>

<p>with that im going to bed.</p>

30

<ol>
<li><p>I repeat: "It's not solely about the Honor Code, especially since this issue is not solely about underage drinking. It's not about a little piece of paper. It's not about a list of "10 things you can't do" in the back of your orientation packet. It's about knowing when something is NOT ALLOWED. You know it's NOT ALLOWED. It's illegal, it's forbidden, it's against the rules, it's against policy...however you want to phrase it, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO IT. Even if it's not expressly stated in the Honor Code that you aren't supposed to do it (neither is murder, neither is taking a crap on the basketball court) you still agree to NOT DO IT by the IMPLIED CONTRACT."</p></li>
<li><p>The implied social contract is a belief system of opinions which dictates how we should interact with the world. THAT CAN'T BE DISCREDITED. If I say "people should apply butter to their bagels first, THEN cream cheese" that's my belief. That can't be discredited. How do you discredit that?? If someone were to say "I believe the earth is flat" then yes, that can be discredited. How do you discredit someone's opinion on how human beings should behave?</p></li>
<li><p>What in the world are you talking about? The basis of the philosophical theory of an implied social contract says that DISOBEYING LAWS IS IMMORAL. That's WHAT IT STATES. Disagree with that if you like, that's fine, I don't care...but don't sit here and tell me your opinion like it's irrefutable and I'm uneducated and ignorant solely because I don't agree with you. You're not even being rational. I can clearly tell that you have no idea what the theory is. That's fine. Just admit it and walk away. Why are you still trying to debate this? And you tell me to use a dictionary? What in the world are you even talking about?</p></li>
</ol>

31

<p>Drinking underage is not against the Honor Code. I would know this- I am an Honor Counsel.</p>

<p>I'm not sure you entirely understand what a social contract is. A social contract only serves as far as the general interest wills it to. This is to prevent tyranny, since otherwise authoritarians could just keep adding these laws and proclaim that the social contract forces people to follow them. For this reason, speeding, jaywalking, and even underage drinking to an extent are not immoral actions because they break the law (in fact, no action is immoral specifically because it breaks the law). I find it very hard to see how outlawing underage drinking is serving the purpose of a social contract.</p>

<p>Of course, I guess it sort of depends on how you define a social contract. If you want to go against Plato, Locke, Rosseau, and other great philosophers that essentially defined this concept in the first place, go ahead.</p>

32

<p>I repeat again: "It's not solely about the Honor Code, especially since this issue is not solely about underage drinking. It's not about a little piece of paper. It's not about a list of "10 things you can't do" in the back of your orientation packet. It's about knowing when something is NOT ALLOWED. You know it's NOT ALLOWED. It's illegal, it's forbidden, it's against the rules, it's against policy...however you want to phrase it, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO IT. Even if it's not expressly stated in the Honor Code that you aren't supposed to do it (neither is murder, neither is taking a crap on the basketball court) you still agree to NOT DO IT by the IMPLIED CONTRACT."</p>

<p>I...don't see how I've in any way gone against the theory, and I don't see how you've indicated that at all.</p>

<p>The social contract is the idea that your presence in the United States is willing and that the laws may be changed by the people. If there were an authoritarian leader then it would invalidate the social contract, because the only way the people can be expected to abide by the contract is if they are free to leave at will or have influence on the laws. In other words, it doesn't matter whether or not you think outlawing underage drinking is dumb. You're free to try and change the law, and if you do not succeed, you're free to leave. You choose to live in the U.S. and so you are obligated, by the implied contract, to obey its laws. In Crito, Socrates says that disagreeing with a law is not an excuse to break it, because the citizen can always either petition to change the law...or leave. In the U.S. you may not always win, but you can (almost) always leave:</p>

<p>"Then the laws will say: "Consider, Socrates, if this is true, that in your present attempt you are going to do us wrong. For, after having brought you into the world, and nurtured and educated you, and given you and every other citizen a share in every good that we had to give, we further proclaim and give the right to every Athenian, that if he does not like us when he has come of age and has seen the ways of the city, and made our acquaintance, he may go where he pleases and take his goods with him; and none of us laws will forbid him or interfere with him. Any of you who does not like us and the city, and who wants to go to a colony or to any other city, may go where he likes, and take his goods with him. But he who has experience of the manner in which we order justice and administer the State, and still remains, has entered into an implied contract that he will do as we command him. And he who disobeys us is, as we maintain, thrice wrong: first, because in disobeying us he is disobeying his parents; secondly, because we are the authors of his education; thirdly, because he has made an agreement with us that he will duly obey our commands; and he neither obeys them nor convinces us that our commands are wrong; and we do not rudely impose them, but give him the alternative of obeying or convincing us; that is what we offer and he does neither."</p>

<p>Edit: when he speaks as the Laws on the subject of breaking the law AND not admitting fault or accepting responsibility:</p>

<p>"...if you go forth, returning evil for evil, and injury for injury, breaking the covenants and agreements which you have made with us, and wronging those whom you ought least to wrong, that is to say, yourself, your friends, your country, and us, we shall be angry with you while you live, and our brethren, the laws in the world below, will receive you as an enemy; for they will know that you have done your best to destroy us."</p>

<p>He refers to it elsewhere as "immoral" and "evil". Seems pretty straight forward to me.</p>

33

<p>sv3a brings up a good point - if underage drinking violates the honor code, then why aren't underage drinkers referred to Honor? Why do we even have a UJC? Underage drinking certainly isn't stealing. It isn't cheating. And lying? Nope. Hell, I've even had police officers ask me if I'd been drinking, to which I responded, "yes".</p>

34

<p>Cav- drinking underage is definitely not inconsistent with the community of trust. Even lying and saying you are "over 21" to get into frat parties is not inconsistent with the Community. There is no way drinking is an Honor Code violation for that matter only. </p>

<p>Well first things are first- Socrates never created a social contract theory. What you quote are references to some sort of contract, but the Greek philosophers only discussed the idea, and may have formulated a groundwork for the modern social contract theory. In fact, Plato is probably the most influential in this aspect, and I don't think Aristotle really adressed the idea but he may have. I don't think anyone considers what Socrates said to be an actual social contract. On a side note, Socrates did say (or Plato wrote) that justice does not exist simply because the laws define what justice is. Rather, justice exists for its own sake, much like what I've been saying. I don't see how any action is immoral specifically because it breaks the law, but are immoral for reasons that they were outlawed in the first place to form a punitive system. </p>

<p>There was a particular reason I did not include Hobbes as among the philosophers, despite him being the first to create what we call a 'social contract' today. As we can see the United States is not a Hobbesian system- in fact we had a revolution to break away from an authoritative monarchy. When Thomas Jefferson was looking for a way to form a new country would he want to revert back to the old? No- this harsh system of government you are describing is antiquated. Most people did not agree with Hobbes and that view fell out of favor fairly quickly. Additionally, if I remember correctly Hobbes even said in the Leviathan that the social contract is not immutable and is supposed to be for the benefit of all.</p>

<p>What I am talking about is the Locke view of the social contract theory. When writing the Declaration of Independence TJ borrowed heavily off of the ideas of John Locke, among which was his social contract theory. Hell, anyone who has taken high school U.S. government, which Virginia and many states require, should know this. The same ideas also influenced the Bill of Rights, and strongly influenced the Founders beliefs that they had the right to secede from the United Kingdom. This was particularly known as the 'right of rebellion', which is imbedded into the modern social contract theory today- at least as how the Founders wanted it to be seen. While a rebellion implies a mass revolution, it also exists in simply as maintaining some control over the government (after all, politicians are our servants, not vice-versa). As I said before, the social contract only goes so far as it serves the general interest- this is one function of the modern social contract. Even if one breaks the law in this manner, it is not breaking the contract and it is not immoral for this reason. In fact, Rosseau introduced the idea as part of a direct democracy rule. While obviously we do not have that today, it shows how the modern social contract theory was used to serve the interests of the people. I'm sure even Hobbes would question the legitimacy of applying the social contract to the outlawing of underage drinking.</p>

35

<p>anyone else think its completely ridiculous to bring up the "social contract" in relationship to underage drinking and driving a car.</p>

<p>just clue me in if i am completely off base.</p>

36

<p>cavalier302 - Why am I having to repeat this over and over again? It's not just about the Honor Code, it's not even just about UVA. No one in Athens signed any pieces of paper.</p>

<p>sv3a - What I quote are "references to some sort of contract"? Are you serious? Did you not read Crito in high school? Or anything? That text is the classically definitive basis for the theory itself. The rest of that paragraph is rambling. Are you trying to discredit Socrates' influence in philosophy? What's your point? Socrates says that people rely on laws in order that they may rely on the stability of society, and that if we go against the laws developed by society then we are destroying society itself. That's pretty damn clear in the text, and we're talking about BREAKING LAWS. What in God's name are you trying to argue here? Where does the issue of "justice" come into play?</p>

<p>The rest of your paragraphs I could probably debate for weeks, but I haven't read their texts as recently as Socrates and besides...at the heart of the matter I think it's relevant. Perhaps I do not wish to incorporate the "modern" social contract into my life. What if I want to remain classical in that sense? What if I wanted to take Socrates' words alone and use them to develop my system of beliefs? What if I were to take Crito alone and adapt it to my life? What if I were to overlook everything except that singular text and that classical set of principles without bringing modern texts into it? How does one argue with that? I definitely don't think ANYONE who followed that philosophical ideal would take one single philosopher's ideas alone (as I propose to do with Socrates, as you claim you are doing with Locke) because the idea is far bigger than one man. But what if I did? I would say that the more modern "right to rebellion" was not referenced by Socrates, and by the rest of his texts I doubt he would support it.</p>

<p>I am going to say that I do not think you have any more of an understanding of this issue than I do, despite your belief that you do, and that I'm not going to debate it for days on end. I think at the heart of this issue you disagree with my perspective, which is fine. Just say "I disagree".</p>

<p>jags861 - Yeah we get it, you think it's ridiculous. You don't like being judged. Deal with it.</p>

37

<p>If it's not about the Honor Code, then why did you bring it up in the first place? Why did you call me a promise breaker? Why did you callously assume that I think the Honor Code is a joke, and that I drink because it's "funny and cool"?</p>

38

<p>If you would like me to further analyze and speculate about your situation I'm more than willing to.</p>

<p>I could say, if we're taking this issue further, that if you're willing to break your contract with your society (not to drink underage) that you are not worthy of trust. That you are dishonest, that you care more about your own interests than the interests of society as a whole. Do you break promises? I could say that by living here in the U.S. you make an unspoken oath to not break its laws, and by breaking its laws you are breaking a promise. And yeah, clearly you think it's funny and cool or something to underage drink because you joke about it on a forum where any University faculty or staff could see it. If, you know, I analyzed your behavior further.</p>

<p>Argue about this or that...but you break the law. You think it's cute. I don't. Whatever.</p>

39

<p>No, Crito was not the basis for the social contract as we are describing it in the United States context. The first who did that was Thomas Hobbes in Leviathan, much later after Socrates. Crito, and even the criticism of the social contract in The Republic, are not wholly relevant to the system of laws we follow today. Yes, you can say by your own personal belief system underage drinking is immoral. However, you hijacked the concept of a social contract that the Founders- particularly TJ, the founder of UVA- used, which was based on writings of John Locke, not Socrates. If we're going to be talking about the 'social contract' that we all 'sign' we best use it properly. After all, this 21 years of age drinking law is a U.S. law, and thus U.S. principles are applied, not ancient ones.</p>

<p>After all, by drinking underage we're just keeping the spirit of TJ alive.</p>

<p>Let me just add on- there's a reason we learn about Locke's social contract but never hear of Socrates' ideals in high school or college government courses. Want to guess why?</p>

40

<p>actually 21 drinking age is not us law - it is infact a law each and every state made in order to keep receiving high way funding. but regardless</p>

<p>i think it needs to be said. cav please back me up.</p>

<p>lame-o</p>