<p>It is a simple concept, but one thing I strongly feel regarding college choices/apps is…</p>
<p>if you are pretty set on going into a particular major/area of study, apply to the universities/colleges that have the strongest reputations in that particular department. Don’t get caught up in overall rankings because a university’s overall rankings do not always “jive” with its strengths/weaknesses in various departments. There are many examples of lower ranked/less prestigious schools that have some of the best programs in the country. (one I immediately think of is the University of Cincinnati)</p>
<p>If you can find legitimate evidence showing a school has a great reputation in your intended area, chemistry, then go for it. When you graduate, potential employers/grad schools will definitely know which schools are strong in that field and whose graduates are the most marketable. Good luck to you!</p>
<p>No problem. If you are interested I can send you the entire report. Very thorough and interesting. Some areas covered are very good–some not so good.</p>
<p>KandKsmom – off topic but you have been fooled by a quasi-homonym. The word you were looking for was “jibe,” which means “to be in accord, to agree,” not jive, which has several meanings, but not that one.</p>
<p>I tend to notice these curious misperceptions in vocabulary. A similar favorite (or unfavorite) that I see often is “for all intensive purposes.”</p>
<p>Carry on.</p>
<p>By the way, one thing Wisconsin and Virginia now have in common is great basketball coaches. Tony Bennett, late an assistant at Wisconsin under his dad Dick and then under Wisconsin’s superlative Bo Ryan, is now at Virginia, and he just led the Hoos to a thrashing of North Carolina – AT North Carolina!</p>
<p>While I like BO, I would LOVE to see TB take over in a few years. He has BO’s coaching ability with a better outlook on recruiting-as in he likes it and does lots of it himself. He could get UW back to the Final 4. I don’t think BO can.</p>
<p>In terms of individual science departments strength, Wisconsin easily trumps U Va by 2010 US-News graduate school ranking.</p>
<p>biology: Wisconsin (W) #15, UVA (V) #42
chemistry: W #7, V #50
computer science: W #11, V #29
math: W #14, V #40
physics: 16, V #36
earth science: #16, V (not ranked).</p>
<p>So, Wisconsin is a solid top 15 science schools in US, far ahead of U VA. Noticed that US-NEWS department rankings are purely based on surveys on academic peers (hundreds of, if not thousands of, deans and program directors from US universities) , while US -NEWS college ranking is based on other criteria such as SAT, graduation rate, student faculty ratio, alumni donation rate etc, a ranking system designed by a few US-news staff members.
I always think the department rankings make much more sense.</p>
<p>As a professional statistician, I deal with data everyday. I know US-NEWS did a lousy job in its annual college ranking. Examples such as Duke ahead of Berkeley, U Va and Emory ahead of Wisconsin, and Yale ahead of Stanford are ridiculous and laughable.</p>
<p>UVA is way more prestigious than Wisconsin. Is this a joke? UVA is the #2 best public school after Berkeley alongside Michigan. At the undergraduate level, you will receive a better Chemistry education in Virginia because it is a much more intimate educated environment. Also, Virginia students are significantly stronger so you will be surrounded by smarter peers. A UVA diploma is VERY highly regarded…</p>
<p>lesdiablesbleus, I agree with your assessment of UVa (and I am pleased to hear you compare it to Michigan), but I am not sure I agree with your assessment of Wisconsin. UVa is indeed more prestigious than Wisconsin in some circles, but those are restricted primarily to the East Coast. Of course, UVa’s excellent Business programs (both McIntire and Darden) and N14 Law School enhance the school’s reputation, as does its affiliation to Thomas Jefferson.</p>
<p>However, in the Midwest and the West Coast, I think Wisconsin is at least as prestigious at UVa. And in terms of student quality, although UVa students are indeed a little bit stronger, the difference is not that significant. We are talking about a 40 point difference on a 1600 SAT scale or a 1 point difference on the ACT composite.</p>
<p>I think the OP should pick based on fit, although both schools share much in common. I think Wisconsin is more liberal and UVa more conservative, so that may tip the scale in one school’s favor. Internationally, I think Wisconsin has a slightly stronger reputation and that may be something the OP may want to consider too, as he not American.</p>
<p>datalook: Wisconsin’s Chemistry Department is even ranked higher than Cornell’s n Northwestern’s. I am impressed. Does that reflect the truth? or the difference isn’t very much? </p>
<p>lesdiablesbleus: On what basis you said that “A UVA diploma is VERY highly regarded”？How about degree from Wisconsin?</p>
<p>Alexandre: Actually I have some gut feeling towards Wisconsin. I heard that its student body is more diverse and Madison is a very nice college town. The only thing that worries me is the weather…</p>
<p>“As a professional statistician, I deal with data everyday. I know US-NEWS did a lousy job in its annual college ranking. Examples such as Duke ahead of Berkeley, U Va and Emory ahead of Wisconsin, and Yale ahead of Stanford are ridiculous and laughable.”</p>
<p>If your interest is in chemistry, go to Wisconsin. It is a nobrainer. #7 vs #50, How can you ignore that huge difference? I checked their scores: Wisconsin-4.5, U VA - 3.1. What does that mean? When academic peers evaluate a program, they give a distinguished program 5 points, a very strong program 4 points, an avearge program 3 points. My interpretation of Wisconsin’s 4.5 score is that approximately 50% of the deans and program directors rated Wisconsin chemistry as distinguished, another 50% rated Wisconsin chemsitry as very strong. For U VA chemsitry, approximately 90% of the deans and directors rated it as average, while 10% rated it as very strong, roughly 0% rated it as distinguished. You can qickly check my interpretation makes some sense even though nobody knows the reality, except for a few US-NEWS staff members who looked at the survey data.</p>
<p>If you go to Wisconsin, you will learn from some of the most distinguished professors in the world. If you go to U Va, you will learn from mostly avearge good professers. Which university is appealing to you? </p>
<p>Yes, U VA students have a little higher average SAT score. But the smartest students at both places are righly the same. Wisconsin has better faculty, which is the heart and soul of a university. Better faculty can lead you to a higher level, give you better advices and better career opportunities, and if you want to pursue a graduate degree, their recomendation letters matter more.</p>
<p>“Better faculty can … give you better advices and better career opportunities, …”</p>
<p>maybe, maybe not. An enduring argument about smaller vs. larger universities (usually in the context of a Large Research University vs. Liberal Arts College) is that at the smaller venue, help is given to ALL, and usually proactively vs. the reactive help at the large university. At the larger, you’d better be in the top 20% or so to get the attention and time of busy research professors… unless you’re incredibly persistent!</p>
<p>So you see the faculty question is a complicated one. In this particular case, it is possible that a less distinguished faculty member at UVA who takes the time to give some mentoring to a B student would in fact give “better advices” and open the door to “Better career opportunities” than a more distinguished faculty member at UWisc who can’t/won’t take the time to help a B student at Wisconsin. You really can’t answer that question.</p>
<p>This reminds me of a post I read about a year ago regarding Princeton. A parent posted that in a lot of science majors at Princeton, let’s use chemistry strictly as a convenient example, the professors “encourage” the struggling students to find a different major. The tone of the post was not one of remediation and mentoring, but of redirection out of the major.</p>
<p>Now let’s step back for a second and consider this struggling chem major at Princeton. Let’s suppose this student is at the 50% of students there. That means they have a 1485 SAT, proably 4.4 weighted average/4.0 unweighted out of high school, with 5-10 AP, including Physics BC, Bio, Chem, Calculus BC, maybe multivariate, and so on. Had strong ECs showing passion and the ability to go 100% energy and effort for 18 hours per day.</p>
<p>This superstar is struggling against similarly qualified undergrads at Princeton. Was Princeton the right choice? Is the stellar faculty at Princeton of value to this B student who is being “Encouraged” to find a different major than the one they really want o pursue? What if this person had matriculated into Boston College instead? Or University of North Carolina? Or Tulane? What are the odds that this top 10% student at one of those other possible choices would be “encouraged” to find a different major? What if instead this same student is at the top of the class in chemistry and offered interesting research collaboration by one or more professors there?</p>
<p>You see? The strength of faculty not much of an argument when one gets to specific cases.</p>
<h2>"UVA is way more prestigious than Wisconsin. Is this a joke? "</h2>
<p>Not in the sciences (and engineering). And that’s precisely the problem with overall school rankings. When an applicant has a decent idea that they want to pursue one of the sciences (as opposed to Liberal Arts or Social Sciences), then the “whole-school” ranking becomes moot. If their intention is even more focused, and they are clear about which area of science they wish to pursue, then that Department’s rankings should receive some consideration along with the general excellence across the science departments at a school.</p>
<p>Let’s say I’m in the market for a gas/electric CA legal hybrid car. The year is 2008. Let’s further say that I’m partial to Mercedes and BMW because of their racing traditions, especially at the 24 hours of Le Mans, and because I think people will think more highly of me if that’s the car I own. So I ask my buddy which of the two he thinks is better for me, MB or BMW. To which he laughs, and points out that neither manufacturer offers a hybrid in CA. To which I respond… no matter, MB and BMW are more prestigious than the makers who do offer hybrids, so I’ll just have to learn to make do with whatever it is that they offer.</p>
<p>"UVA is way more prestigious than Wisconsin. Is this a joke? "</p>
<p>Not just the sciences and engineering. Are there any social science departments at UVA more prestigious than at UW? Econ? no. History? no. Poli Sci? no. Sociology? no. </p>
<p>My impression is that UVA has a more structured undergraduate environment which has great value for some people. The motivated student will have incredible resources at UW.</p>
<p>HiroseAki, Madison is indeed a very nice college town, but so is Charlottesville, and UVa’s student body is as diverse as Wisconsin’s. But the two schools do have very different feels, and if your gut tells you Wisconsin, go for it.</p>
<p>I think the biggest difference is UVa students are more upper middle income and pre-preprofessional. UW has much more economic and goal/values diversity. Wisconsin is colder; but not crazy cold most of the time. You also get a month of the coldest weather off for a long winter break–in a warmer climate if possible.</p>
<p>MilwDad, I could fib and tell you that what I wrote was due to … </p>
<p>…a mistyped letter- (“v” is next to “b” on the keyboard you know :)) </p>
<p>or </p>
<p>…say that it is a “southern thang” to say “jive”…</p>
<p>but, I’ll fess up. You got me! Isn’t it great to learn something new everyday? BTW, I hate “for all intensive purposes”, too, and grammatical errors really get under my skin (thanks a lot Mr. Bailey- old high school English teacher), so…thanks for the correction!</p>
<p>KandKsmom – I appreciate that you appreciate the gentle correction. Actually, there’s probably no better place to get corrected than on an anonymous message board. No one can see us blush. ;)</p>