UVA vs. Barnard...HELP!

College Search & Selection
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<p>So I'm debating between UVA or Barnard and I'm highly interested in both. Even though I'm not as concerned about prestige I'm still curious about it. I'm an Asian who goes to a competitive, Asian dominated international school so everyone around me all hyped up about HYPSM. Surprisingly though, my parents couldn't care less.</p>

<p>I'm thinking about double majoring in (art) history and business.</p>

<p>UVA -</p>

<p>Great history program, beautiful setting and campus, different environment than what I'm used to...good change but with the 11% Asian population, not TOO different so I won't feel like a serious minority. According to collegedata.com (not sure if it's reliable) retention, % graduating, and employment rates are pretty high. </p>

<p>Downside: heard about the friendly students, but still worried about possible racism. (I haven't really thought about Southern schools until UVA) It's a bit school and I've mostly been interested in small LACs. Also, I'm not sure if the undergrad economics/business programs are good. </p>

<p>Barnard - </p>

<p>I like the city, good art history program, small student population, internship opportunities...yeah basically it's just in NYC and that's pretty tempting. Statistics are good too.</p>

<p>Downside: bad publicity about being a back door to Columbia, girls' school, small campus, sketchy neighborhood.</p>

<p>I have friends who are applying to either UVA or Barnard. Both have half of my preferences but still have their downsides. HELP!</p>

2

<p>Oh and I forgot to add, what about UVA vs. Emory and Carnegie Mellon?</p>

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<p>The people at UVA are, on the whole, not racist. And if they were, seeing as it's the South, the blacks, and not the asian students should be the ones concerned. 99.9% of people will be absolutely normal. And the other .1% are people you wouldn't want to talk to anyway.</p>

<p>Barnard is not in a sketchy neighborhood. Morningside Heights is one of the safer neighborhoods simply because Barnard and Columbia (among other schools) are there.</p>

<p>The big difference is location and class size. UVA is a big school in the south whose freshman class size is twice the size of Barnard's entire student body.</p>

<p>Choose the school you like best. It looks like you (worries aside) are leaning towards UVa.</p>

4

<p>Barnard is in a great location. Columbia has been pretty much able to buy out apartment buildings and then rent them out at a higher cost, thus not allowing minorities to live there. Columbia is also in the process of building a campus from 125th to the 130's , which in ten years I suspect will become another minority flight. I am not saying Columbia is racist or anything but since I work there during the summer , I know thier "plots". Do not go by rumors of what you hear about NYC, it is really changing, for the better.</p>

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<p>I will be a little bit bias towards Barnard only because I've visited the college. Personally, I don't think anyone can truly answer this for you. Have you visited both colleges? How about Emory and Carnegie Mellon? You know, when I couldn't decide which school to go for, I applied to all of them first. Then I visited the schools to see if I can picture myself there. Or you can visit first then apply. </p>

<p>Bernard is a great school. Although it's an all girls' school, there is nothing wrong with it. Guys are everywhere! And you can actually take classes in Columbia University. People who talk down on girls' schools really have no idea what's it's like. If you don't mind being around girls and can over come the false rumors, Bernard is like the perfect school. Go visit the schools and see for yourself. I wish you good luck. If you need help, feel free to contact me.</p>

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<p>These two are SO different, I am sure you can find schools that offer the best of both.</p>

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<p>I went to Barnard. The neighborhood is fine. There is no undergrad business major.</p>

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<p>clandestine, how did you ever settle on just those two choices? They are both fine schools but hard to imagine two more different environments.</p>

<p>It seems you are not a US citizen but you are attending high school in the US. If this is correct, then you will be applying as an international. This immediately puts you at somewhat of a disadvantage, especially if you require any financial aid. </p>

<p>If you do require financial aid, you'll need to be sure to understand the difference between need based aid and merit aid and what you may be eligible for. Different colleges have different policies for green card holders, so if that's your status you'll need to research this further. </p>

<p>There are several small LACs that offer both good art history and good business connections (not a business major per se, but excellent entrees to internships and MBA programs). You might consider some of the more remotely located LACs because they still consider Asians URMs. By going against the grain you could gain some competitive advantage.</p>

<p>Schools I would look at would be Williams (the BEST art history, excellent economics and Wall Street interface), Hamilton, Conn College, Kenyon, Vassar, Wesleyan, Smith, Skidmore.</p>

<p>CMU and JHU are both urban and excellent for art history, but again their atmospheres are so different from both Barnard and UVA, it's difficult to understand what you're really looking for.</p>

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<p>clandestinelove: My daughter is a Barnard student. She wanted me to tell you:</p>

<p>1) Women at Barnard don't feel it's the back door to Columbia. They love their school.</p>

<p>2) Morningside Heights is the second safest neighborhood in NY.</p>

<p>3) People in NY have a lot of respect for Barnard.</p>

<p>4) You must do a thesis at Barnard (not Columbia) which encourages true academic and intellectual involvement.</p>

<p>5) Barnard students can visit the Metropolitan Museum and other major museums for free. Most art history classes involve an entry into the city.</p>

<p>6) Many of the women (like my daughter) go to the Met often (although art history is not her major.) They walk through the park et voila! She has been to many other museums as well, including the Cloisters (the Met's medieval museum, way way uptown), all for free.</p>

<p>8) Oh, and apart from Freshman Seminar, she has not been in one class that has not had guys attending. Columbia students taking Barnard courses now out number Barnard students taking Columbia courses.</p>

<p>I am not negating monrath's point: there are many wonderful schools for what you're looking for. I just wanted to give you the right impression of Barnard.</p>

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<p>Thanks Momrath and Mythmom! </p>

<p>Momrath -
I'm going to an international school, and friends who just graduated tell me we really are at a disadvantage, especially to state schools. Yeah, I just realized how different Barnard and UVA are...I've been doing college search since middle school (I'm not crazy, and so aren't my parents - my school is) but I always seem to change my mind every year. I looked up Williams and it's gorgeous but the only downside is that it's in such a rural setting...I guess all colleges have downsides despite their reputation.</p>

<p>Mythmom -
Thanks for the information! It seems as though Barnard students love their school a lot, and I think it's a great school myself. I heard their art history program is pretty good as well. How does your daughter like it there? I'm rather concerned about the quality of life...especially dorms and food. And the selectivity ><</p>

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<p>I can speak to UVA and may be able to offer some other considerations.</p>

<p>UVA is a large state school, but they've done a very good job of making it feel a bit more cozy. Of the large state schools, it may be the best at really caring about undergrad education ... even to the point of hurting its research reputation among peer universities. Art history is supposed to be a difficult course of study, but I have no information on its quality other than that.</p>

<p>Racism does exist, but in various levels of virulence. You'll find very few (if any) of the true redneck bigots there. Frankly, UVA is very selective and someone that stupid is unlikely to get in. On the other hand, there are unrecognized racist attitudes that some people hold, as evidenced by the fact that many fraternities/sororities have no African American members. And THAT's the key. Even the mild racism there is aimed at AAs, and separation (voluntary of not) is by black/white. Not by any other "race" designation. Some AAs mix with whites. Some don't. It's not clear who bears the fault for that, whites, AAs, or (my guess) a bit of both.</p>

<p>UVA is darn near hidebound by tradition in some ways, and that is both good and bad. The flavor is definitely Southern, but in a very mild form. One-third of the attendees are from Northern Virginia, which is basically an Eastern metropolitan area with only the slightest hint of Southern culture. One-third are from out of state, with a large number from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. The other third is from scattered places throughout Virginia, but there are counties (mostly in the south and southwest parts of the state) that send and handful or fewer students to UVA. </p>

<p>As for Barnard/UVA, they're very different, as you are learning. Barnard does have the advantage of being in NYC and, for an art history major, I would think that might be important. You'll find many more great works of art NYC museums than you will find in Charlottesville, Virginia.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't try to double major in AH and business. MINOR in business...something like Finance or Marketing. </p>

<p>That said, I'd go with UVA.</p>

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<p>Those 2 schools are SOooo different. Did you visit the campuses?? I have spent time on both, so I do have a basis to my opinion.
I echo Momrath's info on the other schools. I am not as familiar with the LAC's, but from what I know, the schools she mentioned above may be good schools to check out too-- and that includes Vassar- Conn College etc.</p>

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<p>I haven't read all the posts here, but I do agree with the OP about the <em>perception</em> of Barnard being a "back-door to Columbia." I even know someone who didn't get into Columbia, but got into Barnard. She now tells everyone she goes to Columbia (and even puts it on her Facebook page). What does that tell you? </p>

<p>The comment that "you can actually take classes at Columbia" is somewhat troubling, too. I don't know if Barnard pushes this in their brochures and recruitment literature, but I do think that some of these women's schools would do well to consider NOT making that a focus of their schools (in their brochures, etc). I know Wellesley does this to a degree-- really pushing that a Wellesley student can take classes at MIT and Harvard-- so much so, that a few years ago when my daughter was looking, this finally made her say-- "well, why don't I just apply to those schools instead??" So, for some, that really does have a negative effect-- making it <em>sound</em> as though the women's college isn't enough in itself. Something to think about.</p>

<p>While I suspect both schools would be great for you, I agree with slipper about possibly finding schools that offer a combination of the best that these schools offer? How about Duke, which (I believe) has a strong art history dept-- or certainly used to-- and a relatively large Asian student population.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
so much so, that a few years ago when my daughter was looking, this finally made her say-- "well, why don't I just apply to those schools instead??" So, for some, that really does have a negative effect-- making it <em>sound</em> as though the women's college isn't enough in itself. Something to think about.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Very interesting. I never thought of that angle. Perhaps they should say something like, "Our LAC offers the very best one gets from small, discussion-oriented classrooms, PLUS the very best one gets from large, research-oriented institutions."</p>

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<p>Why are you debating at this point? Why not apply to both and see what happens over time, or are you planning to apply to one of them ED? Visit, do interviews, go to local receptions. Emory also sounds like a good match for you.</p>

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<p>Tarhunt: Yes, I do think something more along those lines would be better-- and not make the other, larger schools so much the focal point in all their literature. (Again, don't know that Barnard does this, but Wellesley certainly does, which seems an odd marketing tool to me, and can have the opposite effect they really want.)</p>

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<p>Um Jack...Facebook puts Columbia, not Barnard. My daughter would prefer that profile said Barnard.</p>

<p>About the idea that you CAN take courses, that's silly. Barnard is PART of Columbia University. They are really one school. Some majors that Columbia students take are housed at Barnard and only Barnard (Theater, Architechture, Urban Studies). I don't want to start up this debate, but the situation between the two schools is not what you think.</p>

<p>To the OP: My daughter loves Barnard, although she does find the work very intense. There is no grade inflation, and the women must take five courses each semester. The dorms are fine but the food is pretty bad, like many colleges. Hewitt Dining Hall at Barnard is usually preferred to John Jay at Columbia, and many Columbia students eat there. That only says that the food at Columbia is even worse.</p>

<p>Barnard is a great place for an international student because it has many international students (often daughters of people at UN for example) and NYC itself is very international.</p>

<p>I don't want to be a shill for Barnard; there are many wonderful schools. However, I do feel called upon to clear up these persistant misconceptions.</p>

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<p>mythmom: Sigh. As I said before, I know nothing of Barnard, really, except its location. I have been there, but have never read their recruitment material. It is a fine school, of that I am sure.</p>

<p>As far as the Barnard person I mentioned, she also <em>tells</em> people she is a Columbia student (never ever mentions Barnard), regardless of what Facebooks says (and that's odd it wouldn't say Barnard--very odd). I find her particular attitude both telling and sad. Thought it was worthwhile to mention it, since this topic had already been brought up by the OP. </p>

<p>As far as the comment, "you can take courses at Columbia!" I was quoting what another poster here wrote--not my quote. I subsequently wrote about how that <em>sounds</em> and commented on the <em>perception</em> it gives.</p>

<p>My daughter had no interest in either Columbia or Barnard, though we did visit. My comments were merely about the <em>perception</em> one gets (OP's comment about the "backdoor to Columbia"), which is often heightened, inadvertently, by the way [some] of these women's colleges push the schools with which they have a connection. I personally think it's a bit of a mistake to make those connections the focal point in recruitment material.</p>

<p>I think Tarhunt understood what I was saying. This is not a slam against Barnard, or any of the women's colleges, which are complete in their own right. I was merely suggesting that they (and I know nothing of Barnard's brochures, so I'll only speak of some other women's colleges, including and especially Wellesley) would do well to downplay the other schools a little in their brochures/recruitment material. Otherwise, that focus may have an opposite effect-- as it did with my own daughter-- who felt that she should just apply to MIT or Harvard, since Wellesley seemed to push it so much. </p>

<p>And just to make things clearer (for me, at least), the college application and admissions to Barnard and Columbia (and subsequent acceptance, waitlist, rejection) are one and the same, then? </p>

<p>Again-- to the OP-- as others have stated, UVA and Barnard are vastly different. And Charlottesville is not NYC. I agree with the poster who suggested finding some additional schools that might combine the best of both of these.</p>

<p>Whew.</p>

20

<p>Okay, but the reason Facebook says Columbia is because it is Columbia. SEAS, Columbia College and Barnard are all on the Columbia University Facebook account. D would prefer Barnard, but the account is for Columbia University of which she is a part. Sorry about the girl you know, but D would never say Columbia for Barnard. That's a no no for most Barnard students because they are proud of their school and love it.</p>

<p>I know I must seem overly defensive to you, but Barnard bashing is endless. I am not including you in this contingent, but your ideas seemed reminiscent of that group.</p>