VADM Fowler and RADM (sel) Klunder: Why Being a Mid is Worthwhile

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>I find myself in an awkward position of agreeing in the main with mombee. Nobody on this message board was in the room when these decisions were made. Nobody knows the facts, nor are they ever likely to know them.</p>

<p>Sure, you might believe that there is strong anecdotal evidence that there is special treatment given athletes - especially football players - at USNA, and in this case in particular. I would even say that my observations 25+ years ago as a Midshipman would bolster my own personal feelings that the average Joe/Jane Mid doesn’t get the breaks a varsity football player gets.</p>

<p>I also saw in the Fleet that some people were treated better than others for no apparent reason to me other than favoritism. I see it in the business world now as well. All I have been able to deduce is that life isn’t always apparently fair. Emphasis on apparently. </p>

<p>All you can do is rise above it and not be like that person whose decisions you disagree with, or use them as an object lesson for “how not to behave”. The other thing I have learned in my nearly 50 years is that people who bend the rules, cut corners and behave other than honorably is that they usually trip themselves up - eventually.</p>

<p>If you’re angry about the Marcus Curry situation and want something done, I suggest you write your Member of Congress and Senators. Engaging in a slagging match on this message board accomplishes nothing. This has become verbal trench warfare.</p>

<p>My two cents’ worth…</p>

<p>Mike</p>

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<p>I know I said I would no longer post in this thread but I have continued to follow the debate with interest. And I only have one comment: Well said GoNavyXC…you truly deserve your commission as an Ensign in the United States Navy.</p>

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<p>trackandfield08 - I agree with your post and also think that was a great and informative post by GoNavyXC. Thanks so much for all the details and keeping us informed XC! Way to go with the harder right (not in the keeping us informed part but in just all you’ve done while a mid in trying to improve the honor climate)!</p>

<p>mombee - hard as this is to say, I think I do owe you an apology. I read your last post to me regarding your singular opinion and decided to quote you back all the things you’d said that I disagreed with. Popped open Word to cut and paste them all into, and when I went through and read all your posts, I found that really, I don’t disagree with what you say, more just the way in which you say it. :wink: In general, seems like you’re just saying over and over that we don’t have the facts. That’s true. However, we also aren’t a court of law or a newspaper reporter charged with straight reporting of the truth, and CAN express our opinions/beliefs/guesses. I think for the most part what everyone else is saying could be prefaced by “IF this is true”, and then you’d be a lot happier with our statements. I guess I thought that was kind of implied, but will clarify in the future. I was also probably a bit naive to just assume that since something was reported online or in the paper that every fact associated with it was true. But I do think this is a lot like the OJ analogy someone brought up. We don’t know the facts or the evidence (and almost certainly never will), but circumstantially it sure looks like he was guilty. Maybe 20 years from now Midn Curry will write his own “If I had done it” book!</p>

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<p>I am going to waive a yellow flag of caution. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usna.edu/AdminSupport/Instructions/5000-5999/5211.3A.pdf[/url]”>http://www.usna.edu/AdminSupport/Instructions/5000-5999/5211.3A.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I guess I can’t ignore you when you ask me a direct question. With each post you seem to assume the right of spokesperson for larger and larger groups.</p>

<p>It doesn’t matter what I believe. Or what you believe either. What matters is what the Midshipman who carried it into Smoke Hall and Midshipman Curry believed. And ultimately, what Admiral Fowler believed.</p>

<p>Smoke Hall is not some out of the way hidden secret spot where renegade Midshipmen can go smoke dope with impunity. It is immediately adjacent to the Rotunda in Bancroft Hall, right around the corner from the Brigade Watch Office. It is not a dead-end space, but a passageway to various locations both within and outside Bancroft. Also, probably these two were not the only Midshipmen in the Brigade hankering for a smoke on a cold December night.</p>

<p>What Midshipman would literally commit suicide by knowingly lighting up a “blunt”, as you describe it, under these conditions? Bancroft Hall is federal property. Even a Midshipman being separated would be setting himself up for a huge legal headache if he were caught. So yes, it is possible that he thought it was camouflaged sufficiently to be unidentifiable. And yes, Midshipman Curry could have been duped. Remember, hopefully, the vast majority of these “four thousand laughing Midshipmen” which you are using for evidence, are not the most drug savvy in the world.</p>

<p>Go to a convenience store and purchase one box of cigars in wrappers. Ensure that they are moist and not dried out. The larger the diameter the better. Cheap ones preferably. Phillies “Blunts” are perfect. Ensure that cut tobacco instead of whole leaf is used for filler. Return to Bancroft Hall. Remove cigar from box but leave in wrapper. Place cigar between the palms of both hands and rub for a minute or so, loosening up the filler inside. Remove carefully from wrapper. Open desk drawer. Remove two loose-leaf binder clips, the type with the long metal pointed strips at each end. Select the larger size, the one with the 3 ½” strip. Insert single strip, pointed end first, into center of cigar. Slowly and gently insert to the hilt. Next insert the second strip immediately adjacent to the first one. The desk drawer is still open. Remove retractable pen and withdraw refill cartridge. Insert pointed end of refill between the two binder clips, forcing it gently all the way in, working it back and forth to increase the size of the cavity between the two strips. Next, open your con locker. Remove the illegal drug of choice. The drier and the finer the consistency, the better. Rotate the pen refill cartridge and use the blunt end to pack the illegal substance into the cavity of the cigar. Stop filling when within ¼” of tip. This will be approximately two cigarettes worth of illegal substance. Remove another cigar from wrapper and obtain a pinch of filler and pack it into the tip of the first cigar. Rotate refill cartridge 90d and place firmly on tip of cigar between the two clips. Very gently, remove both clips simultaneously. Rotate cigar 180d and tap gently on desk top. Replace in cellophane wrapper. Repeat procedure for a 2nd cigar. Pick up cell phone. Invite other Midshipman to Smoke Hall to share a farewell smoke. Hopefully the approximately 12:1 ratio of tobacco to illegal substance will camouflage both the aroma for everyone and the taste for him. Watch his face to see if and how long it takes him to realize that he has been set up.</p>

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For once on this thread, you are correct. The Midshipman who set Curry up, and believed he could get away with it, was a fool, a gullible fool.</p>

<p>While again, I make no assumptions whatsoever as to the accuracy of the above scenario, simply that it is as probable as most, more plausible than many. I guess the ultimate Catch 22 would be an attempt to be censored for posting credible illegal activities. However, it is pertinent not to assume that the only definition of a ‘blunt’ is that which Luigi portrays, a handful of marijuana wrapped in a tobacco leaf. As with most things in the world, there are many variations.</p>

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<p>Everyone stop laughing at mombee’s naivete. He keeps digging a deeper, more embarrassing hole for himself with every clueless post. He doesn’t know any better, Wiki is his source material.</p>

<p>Fowler bought the Brooklyn Bridge, swamp land in Florida, and an extended warranty on both.</p>

<p>Keep whistling past the graveyard, fiddling as Rome burns, denying the tanks are in Baghdad, and testifying that cigarettes do not cause cancer.</p>

<p>Remain calm. All is well. </p>

<p>A 7.3 yds/per carry running back is not something the brass wants to lose over something so minor as his illegally using drugs on a military installation. Especially when they have the sworn testimony of the already-separated Mid who supposedly supplied the drugs. Very reliable witness, he wouldn’t lie, would he? :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Zero Tolerance! Go Navy, beat Army at any cost, including sacrificing honor and integrity.</p>

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<p>I guess the whole scenario kind of ignores, if I recall correctly, that “Smoke Hall” is not an authorized smoking area?</p>

<p>GoNavy . . . have you seen the email circulating–supposedly signed by a current 1/c [although I can’t understand why she would have affixed her true name to it]–that tells a story very similar to what you are alleging and even makes the claim that she was well-known to Curry? Interesting reading.</p>

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<p>I was forwarded the email. I have to say that it is full of the same rumor, innuendo and unqualified conclusions that have been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere.</p>

<p>Irrespective of whether there is any merit to the allegations, it is an embarrassing and inappropriate email allegedly from a 1/c striper who is/was in MIDN Curry’s company.</p>

<p>It alleges things that the author could not possibly have any firsthand knowledge of or expertise in, is in some cases blatantly factually incorrect, and is full of sophomoric hyperbole. It even divulges supposed confidential details of conduct and honor cases and calls them “facts”. </p>

<p>I can understand the feeling of moral outrage if the allegations are true - and I’m not saying they are or they aren’t - but the email appears to have been sent to alumni. As far as I am concerned it could be just another hoax meant to embarrass the supposed author, and I hope that it is. If it isn’t, then the author should be ashamed for violating the trust and confidence placed in him/her.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, if a person deliberately leaks this type of correspondence they become part of the problem, IMO.</p>

<p>Before anyone brands me with the “all that matters is 7.3 yards per carry” brush, I will disclose that I’m a season ticket holder for Navy football, but I would not care if we ever won a game again. I go for the party, not the game.</p>

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Amen. My exact recommendation a long time ago. 7.3 logical comments per post to no avail. I think I am through with this discussion.</p>

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I apologize. or should I apologize to all the female Midshipmen?</p>

<p>It is best to work within the system. “Loose cannons” create unnecessary turmoil. There is a reason things are the way the are. Since you never responded to my comments one hundred or so posts back, I will not elaborate.</p>

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<p>Accepted. I just didn’t know where you were coming from. It seemed like an attempt at a wholesale discredit of everything I have posted.</p>

<p>It is not your posts but I don’t think that “IF this is true” allows one to slander, call people liars, incompetent, gullible, buffoons, etc. Perhaps, “If a combination of the most preposterous events imaginable came together, then this is true” might work.</p>

<p>The split” recommendations make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Even including the vice CNO. They violate about a half dozen very basics of Naval leadership. I don’t think this is the violation of privacy to which the Supt is referring and what each recommended in the chain of command is one of the most closely guarded secrets in the entire evolution with only Admin types and those further up the chain of command knowing each recommendation. Midshipman Curry would not even necessarily know. Upper management talks, a lot, and support each other.</p>

<p>And through all this, I guess we are forgetting that Div I varsity athletes, including footall players, have a higher graduation rate than the Brigade at large, and subsequently do better in the fleet than graduates who do not play sports. There is a quotation on Mitchie Stadium about what one of the past Army leaders and WP Supts thinks about athletes.</p>

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<p>How about those that test positive for illegal drugs? </p>

<p>What’s the graduation rate for them, under the USNA’s “Zero Tolerance” policy? </p>

<p>How do the drug-using football players do in the fleet?</p>

<p>The stain remains. You must be so proud that a star football player who tests positive for drugs is given a chance that no other Mid gets. </p>

<p>A two-tiered punishment system to match their two-tiered admissions system.</p>

<p>Go Navy, beat Army at any cost, including sacrificing honor and integrity.</p>

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<p>How do drug using Captains do in the Coast Guard?</p>

<p>Two-tiered punishment systems exist in life. See USCG Captains v USCGA mids; see Black murderers v White murders; see wealthy defendants v poor defendants.</p>

<p>Two-tiered admission and advancement systems exist in life. I was just noticing Jenna Bush Hager on the today show; would she be there but for her father who would not be where he is but for HIS father. See also, Kennedy.</p>

<p>Life is unfair.</p>

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<p>Thank you. Yes, they do exist. The question is, “should they?” And if they shouldn’t, why tolerate it?</p>

<p>Especially at the institutions that claim to be educating and training leaders of honor and character.</p>

<p>USCGA kicks out drug possessing and drug using cadets. [Coast</a> Guard Academy Cadets disenrolled after drug use](<a href=“http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/2487/432787/]Coast”>http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/2487/432787/)
USAFA kicks out drug dealing and drug using cadets. [Air</a> Force Academy cadet expelled after drug conviction](<a href=“http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20040716/ai_n10039631/?tag=rel.res1]Air”>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20040716/ai_n10039631/?tag=rel.res1)
USMA prosecutes drug using cadets. [Four</a> West Point cadets face charges in drug probe](<a href=“http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070207/NEWS/702070361/-1/NEWS]Four”>http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070207/NEWS/702070361/-1/NEWS)</p>

<p>USNA tolerates and retains drug using Midshipmen. [USNA</a> football star retained after positive drug test](<a href=“Real Estate – Capital Gazette”>Real Estate – Capital Gazette)</p>

<p>But only those who bring “honor” :rolleyes: to the football field every Saturday afternoon on ABC. </p>

<p>The others get the gate, no Supe intervention needed. Gone.</p>

<p>Smoke up. Rah rah. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>It seems to me some will support USNA no matter what decisions are made. Denial and excuses will not make this problem go away. To outsiders this is nothing but a cover up and unfortunately may come back to tarnish a great institution.
Luigi59 this player will pay the piper in the future. Just look at all the professional athletes that get into trouble. They were never required to learn from there mistakes so they continue until they self destruct. USNA is not doing this player or the institution any favors.</p>

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<p>Okay, sorry, but I got lost again. What were the split recommendations? </p>

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<p>Ooh, ooh, I know this one, pick me, pick me! ;)</p>

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<p>Your Wikipedia “research” (again everyone, stop laughing) not withstanding, the answer is “no.”</p>

<p>Luigi, do not presume that I, or all others, share your opinion</p>

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Poor choice of words. The rumor that the Supt and Commandant recommended differently and/or the CNO’s office reversing the Supt’s recommendation.</p>

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<p>Captain Klunder is the man. Flat out. My best example of a leader before CAPT Klunder was my company SEL who will probably be the first female MCPON.</p>

<p>CAPT Klunder does something that no other officer that I’ve encountered does. He listens. He’s charasmatic. Then, he uses all the input that he gets from the subject matter experts in order to make the best, and even most ETHICAL decisions.</p>

<p>I sat in a four hour long meeting with 2 other members of the honor staff and most of the honor/character development senior leaders on the Yard Wednesday afterschool. Let me tell you, there were elephants in that room that no one wanted to bring up, but CAPT Klunder brought them head on.</p>

<p>Now, the new honor concept that is being proposed is not a reactionary piece to suppress the Marcus Curry issue. The 'Dant and the honor staff have gone back and forth on what this new proposal should include. My boss, the Brigade Honor Advsor and myself, the Investigations Advisor have explicitly pointed out that the Brigade wants consistency and “teeth” in the punishments handed down. One of the officers nicknamed this punishment to all offenders called the “blue-plate” special. For all honor offenders, sanctions will include 6 months of remediation, loss of leave, rank, privileges, movement orders, ECA’s, sports, all of those will be taken away for 6 months as well. The 'Dant is all for this move, and even proposed that all 2/c and 1/c who sign their 2 for 7’s will be separated if they see the Commandant for honor.</p>

<p>Changes will be happening at USNA, and one day when people recognize the magnitude of the policy change, we can thank CAPT Klunder for having the fortitude to understand what has gone wrong here at USNA and his determination to fix it.</p>

<p>I could not go on liberty a happier mid knowing that CAPT Klunder is on our side, 100%. Any members of the Brigade reading this: CAPT Klunder has our backs, and he doesn’t care if NAAA, the Capital, the Post…whoever is in our way, he has our backs. He started off the meeting holding the Honor Concept in the air, “I’m living and breathing this everyday, every night when I go home. I know this inside and out, and I’m going to do my best to work with you to make the Brigade the place we all envisioned it would be when we got here”. We even got CAPT Klunder to agree to speak to the honor congress and Brigade on how much he supports what the staff is doing. Statistics have proven that if the 'Dant says he endorses something, the mids will go along with it. We trust him that much that we would go to hell with this man and for this man. Hopefully, the entire Brigade will see the importance of the changes that are about to take place. We’re looking at a complete cultural overhaul that’s been lacking at our school since the “Double E” cheating scandal. This will be the place we all dreamed it would be, thank you Sir for being a proactive leader in this matter and realizing that you hold the balance of the ever shifting moral compass of USNA in your hands.</p>

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<p>Not reactionary??? You have got to be kidding!</p>

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<p>wow-</p>

<p>the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other- God help us.</p>

<p>Just hope all the “teeth” are not aimed directly at the jugular, least you sever the head to cure the headache.</p>

<p>So am I to understand there will be but ONE level of punishment that will be applied to ALL regardless of EXTENT of the crime? A one-size-fits-all??? And automatic separation for 2C and 1C if they go to the Commandant for honor? NO consideration of circumstance? Just a RUBBER STAMP YOU ARE OUT OF HERE??? AND YOU WANT THAT??? </p>

<p>You are not going to like what I post next, but here goes. There are plenty of Mids down there that I would trust without hesitation- and plenty that I would not- and THAT is the harsh reality and THAT is what is frightening. </p>

<p>I am all for consistency.
I am all for rules and regs.
And FAIR and EQUITIBLE punishment that FITS THE CRIME.</p>

<p>But I have witnessed too many events that have turned mole hills into mountains, SELS [on the verge of their own deep end] that take pleasure in piling up infraction after infraction [2, 3 and even 4] DESPITE THE FACT that they overlap, duplicate, and repeat, and Mids that will scurry and hide like cowardly little mice at the first sign of trouble, choosing instead to watch from the cheap seats! AND THEN WHEN IT IS SAFE TO COME OUT OF HIDING, THOSE SAME MIDS WILL TELL YOU THEY HAVE YOUR BACK, “SHIP, SHIPMATE, SELF!!!” RIGHT!!!</p>

<p>Best be careful what you wish for. You may find yourself throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and even “YOU,” my dear Investigations Advisor, are but one bad-decision-being-in-the-wrong-place-at-the-wrong-time-temporary-moment-of-lapsed-judgement step away from being SEPERATED and IN DEBT UP TO YOUR EYEBALLS. </p>

<p>Now renew my faith and tell me that Mids will NOT be forced to plead guilty out of some misguided misperception that it is “expected,” that they will NEVER be questioned UNTIL they can speak to a JAG officer, that they will be PERMITTED to have legal representation OF THEIR CHOOSING AT ALL PHASES OF HONOR HEARINGS if they so choose---- that they will remain INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, THAT THEIR NAMES WILL NOT BE LEAKED OUT TO THE PRESS BY SOME WHINY MIDSHIPMAN WITH A BUG UP THEIR ARSE SO THAT THE DEMANDS FOR JUSTICE CAN BE DEBATED ON EVERY BLOG, TWEET and TWITTER…THAT THE PUNISHMENT WILL FIT THE CRIME…THEN I will buy that you have set up a “FAIR” system.</p>

<p>Short of that, you are only deluding yourself.</p>

<p>Watch the darn pendulum- for it doth swing both ways. And it soulds like you are sharpening that blade to a hairs-breath!</p>

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<p>And there in lies the rub… people [and that includes young, not-yet-ready-for-prime-time Midshipman] are like bugs to the flame- “OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!” you say. OUCH!!!</p>

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<p>KEY WORD: BALANCE
I, too, trust him enough to strike the right cord.</p>

<p>And as much as I respect CAPT Klunder, I would suggest you hold onto your own moral compass.</p>

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<p>This is the lazy way out. Rather than educate and DEVELOP as per the mission statement, this is enforcement through fear and intimidation.</p>

<p>The honor concept used to be administered informally at the squad level. Apparently this avenue no longer exists.</p>

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And it won’t work. Oh, it may straighten out a few plebes but disillusion and embitter the majority. For the system to work, classmates must not condone dishonor among each other. As you say, the punishment must fit the crime. Who is going to turn in a classmate for a minor infraction if they know that the ‘blue plate special’ (I think whoever made this analogy was raising a huge red flag and no one else picked up on it) consists of the above punishments? Things are going to continue as before and GoNavyXC will continue to bemoan the lack of honor.</p>

<p>Again, why do you think the local cafe has a ‘blue plate special’? It is an easy solution for the unimaginative. And in the best interest of management, not the customer.</p>