<p>^ Best of the best averages, I mean.</p>
<p>In our area - the norm in the suburban schools has become 7 and 8 AP classes per year. Most schools allow a kid to take classes during "lunch". One school not only allows classes during "lunch", they've added a "zero period". Thus, the top kids at this school start at 7:30 am and go for 8 straight AP classes. Many give up band, orchestra, etc. because those classes aren't "weighted". </p>
<p>I have suggested that our system require everyone to take a zero credit lunch and an unweighted elective. If you'd rather learn than eat - fine - but no credit for the lunch class. Similarly, if you would rather take an AP class than play in the band, sing, or exercize - that would also be okay - but the elective class would still only be worth a 4.0. </p>
<p>In other words - I wish the schools would help kids learn there is more in life than the top GPA. Give them 5 classes a day to compete in - with a lunch period and elective for their "spirit".</p>
<p>Good idea, Chipper</p>
<p>My D's HS has a "valedictory circle" which consists of the top 2.5% of the class which reasonably awards those top students. Within this group, those interested in giving a speech can write one and audition it before some seniors and some faculty and the single speech giver is chosen by that group. The speech giver could well not be the top student.
The fight for the very top position or two often comes down to the hundredths of GPA points and can be determined by the luck of getting a particular teacher for a class or by other factors outside of the student's control.
I think the "Valedictory Circle" concept works well.</p>
<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad: I think your school handles this situation in a very fair way - you are quite fortunate. It avoids the exact situation that is occuring at my son's school. All three kids have been clearly at the top of the class since freshman year and they all have outstanding, flawless records and now suddenly only two of the three have been singled out. For those of you who are criticizing me for making too big a deal of this situation, my son's school makes a huge deal of val and sat - press releases, newspaper articles, special awards. I would feel bad for the third person had the ranks been different.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It avoids the exact situation that is occuring at my son's school.
[/quote]
If I was the parent of the kid who finished in the 2.501% position I doubt I would say that. Providing awards and visibility to academic acheivements has many pros (especially for the kids who recieve the awards) however, like all things, it also has cons and this string has hit on 2 big ones ... however you decide the cutoff someone is the first kid who did not make the list (and that sucks) ... and there is not perfect ranking / selection method so someone will lose out because of the ranking system chosen also.</p>
<p>No situation is going to be perfect and I also think rewarding everyone (wasn't there a thread about everyone getting trophies somewhere?) is also insane. However, in this case you have three kids with basically indistinguishable records - a different method of calculating final average would have given a different result - perhaps a little flexibility was in order. I have no idea if this has happened in the past, but strongly expect it will happen again if changes are not made. The school also made a huge mistake announcing the top grads the week AP exams started. My son has gone into two AP exams without opening a book - I have tried to see if he is upset, but have gotten nowhere with that. It is very hard to get boys to talk feelings.</p>
<p>"I have no idea if this has happened in the past, but strongly expect it will happen again if changes are not made."</p>
<p>Palermo, the problem is, it will happen again even if changes are made. There is no way to work it that will make everyone happy. I realized this last year (when my son was in a similar situation) and just let it go. You should do the same.</p>
<p>SBDad: I like the way you think. I have always believed in the Greatest Management Principle ever told: You get what you reward. (I vaguely remember reading a book with a similar title many years back.) I don't even know if my daughter's h.s. has a val/sal. When h.s. shopping, I was pleased with their policy of grading on a 100 point scale, weighting GPA based on course difficulty (CP, honors, high honors, AP), awarding honor role with unweighted average, and not ranking. It seemed to be a perfect way to encourage the girls to take advantage of the wonderful selection of fine arts courses and interesting electives. I told my d to take as many darkroom photography/Irish Lit/studio art type courses as she wanted. Provided she take the highest level offered for all her core courses. I'd like to see her receive an education, not just churn out numbers that look good to college admissions departments. I believe the arts are a big part of that. Maybe I'm naive, but I think 5 APs (language, science, math, lit, and history) will demonstrate a willingness to take on challenges. Does it really have to be 10+? I actually don't think it is possible in her school, as APs are not offered until Junior year. This is part of the school's philosophy of nurturing well-rounded girls.</p>
<p>I was salutatorian of my college, so I can speak with authority that it doesn't mean a darn thing. Just happened to have the 2nd highest GPA.</p>
<p>Chipper, I like your ideas.</p>
<p>"The difference between 3.887 and 3.884 doesn't mean anything when A is from 93-100. that's why the 4.0 system is crap and schools should use the 100 point system"</p>
<p>I don't think the 100 point system does anything but give one the illusion that one student is stronger than another. There are four or five students in our school with weighted averages of 103-105. They are all stellar student. My son BTW had the highest PSAT scores sophomore year, not sure if he did junior year but they were higher. He's in the top 1% but not the top two and never will be as he regularly gets Bs in English. (Luckily those Bs get weighted into As!)</p>
<p>I really like my high school's system better. No rank, but the school did tell colleges that a kid was in the top 5%. We voted for the speaker at graduation. And out of a class of 80 - 10 went to HYP. (Note this was way back when Yale and Princeton had just gone co-ed and were desparate for girls - and we were a girl's school.)</p>
<p>But the 4.0 system can give skewed results. Take a child who has 100 averages in 4 subjects and a 92 in 1 versus a second student who has 93 averages in all 5 subjects. Under a 100 point schedule the first has a 98 average, the second a 93. Under a 4.0 scale (where an A goes from 93 to 100 and an A- is worth say 3.8), the first child has a 3.96 versus the second child has a 4.0.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Valedictorian and Salutatorian are titles for people who are the best of the best.
[/quote]
Actually, they're titles for people who amass the highest and second-highest GPAs under whatever arcane, exotic, and highly localized standard has been set by their particular high school. Reading through this thread, the differences in how these titles are awarded are pretty staggering - so much so that the whole brouhaha does indeed seem meaningless. I have no argument with awarding titles, honors, or a lifetime supply of chewing gum to students for any reason, but I do think it's important to recognize what, specifically, each honor means. Valedictorians are not necessarily "the best of the best" by any criterion other than GPA - for whatever that's worth (and sometimes it's money).</p>
<p>When the high school is very large, any problems with the system used to compute Val and Sal are less hurtful for students if there are many other opportunities for them to be rewarded. For example, at my S's HS there are local scholarships with diverse requirements (such that the Val and Sal can't, for ex., have attended every elementary school in the district and must be ineligible for some of these), there are athletic awards and scholarships, there are leadership and community service awards, there are academic departmental awards, etc. Where problems arise is when the GPA is the main requirement for everything and thus the Val and Sal get that award and practically every other one two.</p>
<p>No question about it. The 100 point scale is more precise.</p>
<p>I'm glad to see a mix of scholarship & award criteria. Our town h.s. awards val/sal based on GPA. The top ten kids are also recognized. (Out of about 350) The other awards can be incredibly political, so it's reassuring that quantitative proof of achievement is the measure for v/s, and not nepotism.</p>
<p>Yes, the 100 point scale may more accurate, but it will not solve the innate "unfairness" that exists in the system. Teachers will still grade "differently" with some more lenient than others. There will still be innate differences in the difficulty factor of AP courses - all the kids know that AP Biology is one of the hardest and AP Environmental Science a breeze, BC Calculus demanding and AP Stat a joke, and APUSH vs. Psychology????</p>
<p>And, I also fear that using a 100 point scale will only drive the workload of these "top" kids even higher. I fear they will never learn the meaning of "good enough". They can't "settle" for a 97 - they need a 100 or more. Talk about a recipe for perfection and compulsiveness.</p>
<p>What about if the Val and Sal were determined by a combination of GPA and SAT scores? I'm not sure how that could be done or if it would improve matters, but in theory I do like adding a bit more objectivity and standardization to the system. There are always those students who early on manage to acquire the label of the "smartest" and thereafter that perception colors how teachers view their work. Adding the SAT could help correct that a bit.</p>
<p>TheGFG: My youngest is in a writing class and students are required to grade each other's essay. One day, she had to grade the essay of one student who has received numerous awards for English. She thought the essay was very poorly written, difficult to understand, and gave it a "B". The teacher gave it an "A+". </p>
<p>Two things I find unfair are take-home tests (and am amazed that the teachers don't see the kids who typically get B or C on in-class tests, but always get A on take-home tests) and those that give extra time on tests to selected students, especially when they come back after school (and have had all day to review things they may have not known).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, they're titles for people who amass the highest and second-highest GPAs under whatever arcane, exotic, and highly localized standard has been set by their particular high school. Reading through this thread, the differences in how these titles are awarded are pretty staggering - so much so that the whole brouhaha does indeed seem meaningless. I have no argument with awarding titles, honors, or a lifetime supply of chewing gum to students for any reason, but I do think it's important to recognize what, specifically, each honor means. Valedictorians are not necessarily "the best of the best" by any criterion other than GPA - for whatever that's worth (and sometimes it's money)."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thank you for reading my post.
I said best of the best averages. (look down, after my post.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
What about if the Val and Sal were determined by a combination of GPA and SAT scores? I'm not sure how that could be done or if it would improve matters, but in theory I do like adding a bit more objectivity and standardization to the system. There are always those students who early on manage to acquire the label of the "smartest" and thereafter that perception colors how teachers view their work. Adding the SAT could help correct that a bit.
[/quote]
No.</p>
<p>My D's high school actually downplays the whole valedictorian thing. They do not have a salutatorian. GPAs are not weighted. The valedictorian does not give the speech at graduation. For commencement, the seniors nominate and vote for the classmate who they wish to speak to them. In the commencement program, there is always a statement that goes something like: "Every school has a valedictorian and this year the valedictorian is XXXX." That's it.</p>
<p>It's bothersome that the val/sal issue usually ends up being a numbers game. My school is officially announcing the top ranked students this coming thursday, but it's pretty well known that the valedictorian and salutatorian will be just thousandths of a GPA point apart. </p>
<p>Anyway, my school gives special recognition to the top ten students, giving the top 5 certain duties in relation to graduation (1 - valedictory address, 2-salutatory address, 3- MC at graduation, 4 - MC at baccalaureate dinner, 5 - MC at school-wide academic awards night). Also, those who've made the honor roll for all four years are given awards on awards night and tassles for graduation.</p>