<p>Not a very optimistic take. Structural excess of grads. Happening in other countries already too.</p>
<p>Young</a> College Grads Could Be Stuck With Their Dead-End Jobs Or Worse: Study</p>
<p>Are you comparing it to all the advantages of not having a college education?</p>
<p>It doesn’t do any good to compare earnings to jobs that don’t require a degree to function, as they probably require a degree to be hired for that position, even if not stated in the description.
This ping pongs back and forth for decades, in the minds of people without much common sense.
[Investment</a> in higher ed still pays in today?s economy - Business - The Boston Globe](<a href=“College degree is costly, but it pays off over time - The Boston Globe”>College degree is costly, but it pays off over time - The Boston Globe)</p>
<p>I wouldn’t disagree that families and students allow their ego to supercede common sense when it comes to identifying what school to attend.
Why is one school worth $$$$$$ in debt and another not?
Why do they think high debt will be the golden ticket?</p>
<p>I skimmed over the stories in the feature “Majoring in Debt” at the bottom of the article. What struck me was how several of those interviewed mentioned how they wanted to get away from home, strike out on their own, etc. They went into big debt in large part to finance a sleep-away college experience which they really could not afford. The irony is that their real independence is now impeded by their loans, which financed their temporary pseudo-independence at residential colleges.</p>
<p>My D graduated last June. Her first job out of college was working at a bookstore for $9/hr. She worked there for 6 months and moved to a law firm as an administrative assistant for $16/hr. Could she have done either of these jobs without a BA? Of course. However, Emeraldkity is correct that she needed it to get hired in the first place. My D said everyone under 60 that was working in the bookstore had a BA or better. She wouldn’t have even gotten an interview at the law firm without it.</p>
<p>So… is a BA a ticket to a high-earning professional job? No. Heck, I got my BA in 1976 and it wasn’t then either. Is it a requirement for those who are not skilled in the trades or some other technical specialty to stand a chance at a job with any advancement? Very probably yes.</p>
<p>Is it worth burdensome debt? This is where I agree with the article. In most cases it is not worth out-sized debt. What is out-sized depends on the resources of the student and his/her family. Is it worth, say, ~$20K in debt? Probably in long run, yes, but it’s still a difficult weight for a young person to take into their young, newly independent life.</p>
<p>The problem with the historic data is just that–it is in the past. Going forward the equation can change markedly. If there are only 500,000 jobs and 1,000,000 college grads to fill them–somebody is screwed. I might look more carefully at alternatives. Areas with growth potential that won’t disappear in 20 years. And keep your nut small. (See This is 40)</p>
<p>College certainly still has a great deal of value. It’s just that the value of college is most likely not worth paying full list price for a 4-year residential school. Financial aid, merit scholarships, AP credits to reduce time in school, community college and commute-from-home universities are all still options to fine-tune the risk-reward ratio.</p>
<p>I think that taking out huge loans to fulfill the dream of attending a university is not a good idea any longer. Not enough grads are finding jobs that earn enough to pay the loans back.
My husband’s daughter is taking on very heavy loans for a school that she cannot afford. She will likely have over $200,000.00 of student loan debt , and no clear direction of a career path / major.</p>
<p>I’m with EmeraldKity on this one. There are few true opportunities for those with no college degree or other specialization after high school. There are some (farming, family business, etc) that are right for the right students, but not something I would recommend in general for those talented enough academically to get a degree.</p>
<p>I ALWAYS recommend low debt - definitely < 50K and preferably < 25K (total, not annual). Those who are willing to go higher in debt for an undergrad degree mystify me. To me (and from employers in our circle) no degree name is worth that compared to a more affordable one.</p>
<p>You don’t know if a college education would be of value to you in the future, and it might not be. I know many people, myself included that have had no need of that diploma, none. But not to have one, COULD make a difference. It’s just something to have that COULD, not guaranteed to do so, but COULD open up some doors, give you an advantage. And years down the line, it’s a bit late when it makes that difference, to get one. It isn’t like a 6 week course that generates a certificate.</p>
<p>At age 18, or in any of the young adult years, the opportunity cost to get that degree is usually low. Most young people are pretty much at loose ends as to what they want to be doing, and earning potential is low. No one to be responsible to, but ones self. Just a good time to get that degree and if not immediately useful, tuck it away in case it would be.</p>
<p>I have told this story on this forum before, but will repeat it. My close friend got her master’s while while her DH was in the Armed FOrces. It was an accredited program and was either all or partly through the DOD education center resources available to service men and spouses. She got her master’s from some school that no one has recognized, and for the next 20-30 years of her life, it was irrelevant. She barely mentioned it. I don’t think her jobs even required a BA. </p>
<p>A few years ago, she found herself in the position of being urged to apply to what is a dream job for her with a major university. Her background, language skills, contacts made her a perfect fit for the job and those in the department wanted her. It was hers for the taking and was offered to her. It required a master’s degree. University rules and not easily waivable and they would not be waived. Did they care that her degree came from some no name correspondence school? Nope. Not at all. Block checked for BA, and MA, and she now has the job, a true dream come true with marvelous benefits doing exactly what she has always wanted to do. </p>
<p>The same can happen with a BA. My son worked for a retail operation after school, and they hired high school students, drop outs. BUt when something opened up at corporate, you had better believe that the BA was essential. Maybe they all worked the floor equally up to a certain level but the ladders lowered for certain advancement did require the degrees and they would hire outside the company before bringing up anyone on the floor that did not have the credentials. </p>
<p>That’s still not saying that anyone or even most who get that degree will need it or even find it useful. But having it is something one might find useful. For those who have specific thing that they would prefer to pursue, a better use of their time, go to it. Join the military, learn to carve violins, join a charity/community group, if you truly have a passion for something specific and no desire to go to college right yet. And really, don’t go, if there is good chance you aren’t going to be able to focus on doing the work. Using up whatever federal funds available to flunk out because you are not so focused are ready is folly. But, no, getting the degree is not a waste of time.</p>
<p>College not worth it? Well when the entry-level “clerkish” position requires a BA, then college degree is still mandatory. Whatever happened to the notion that the newly-minted college grad takes a low-level position and works their way “up the ladder”? It’s initiative, motivation, talent, and hard work that get people promoted, once they have their “foot in the door”.</p>
<p>Getting a PHD has become a questionable pursuit for any reason other than the desire for the education and academic environment going into such a program provides. There is a very good reason why most liberal arts PHD programs are funded by the schools themselves with stipends and grants. It’s economically not a good investment at all to have to pay what the true costs would be. People are able to do the math for this. I know many postgrad with advanced degrees working for far less than what low level positions in retail pay, in hopes of finding some job higher up on the ladder in their fields. This is a whole other discussion, however.</p>
<p>It’s funny how the people who complain about their college loans (as noted in the link provided by the OP) and can’t find work always seem to have studied subjects that have little value in the marketplace. Why don’t I ever see this with kids graduating with engineering, business, accounting, or mathmatics? And to load up on debt for a degree in social work! The kid who could not decide what to do with his life but ended up with some arts related degree might have well not even gone to college (if financials are the only measure of the value of college). Why can’t these kids say: “I don’t know what i want to do, so I’ll study accounting in the meantime”. THAT kid ould never suffer unemployment.</p>
<p>The facts are that there are too many people getting college degrees - especially at lower level colleges - that will never be able to use their degrees in their field of study. To fix that, we need more technically oriented schools (which seems to be what a lot of community colleges are turning into), apprenticeships, and cooperation between businesses and the students so students know precisely what they can achieve upin exiting their school. </p>
<p>The other fact is that not all students can expect to have the same job availability based on the schools you go to. A degree from Central Michigan is not the same as one from University of Michigan (never mind schools like Princeton or MIT) all other things being equal.</p>
<p>Mekozak, out of those who start out majoring in the engineering, computer, accounting programs, the drop out rate is high. Higher than most other disciplines, the highest, I have read. THat’s why there aren’t that many who graduate with those degrees. Most people don’t want to do that kind of work and they find out when they have to do what is necessary to even be eligible for such jobs. I would love to have had my kids graduate with those majors, but I was on my knees when they were in college, hoping that they would just graduate, even with a basketweaving degree.</p>
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<p>Many would suggest even more conservative limits on total debt for most students, particularly those who want to major in something with poor job prospects like biology, or who want to go to expensive professional school (e.g. medical or law) after undergraduate.</p>
<p>Some decades ago, when I got my first job (paying 7.25/hr), the people around me had graduated from Harvard, Yale, and Dartmouth. We all felt lucky to get the entry-level publishing job.</p>
<p>My brother was making $25/hr working construction, and then 60k a year with an associates degree as a mechanic.</p>
<p>Heck, I worked two jobs, and also got my Masters right after college. My degrees weren’t useless, but they weren’t going to make me a quick fortune, either. Very little has changed.</p>
<p>There are far fewer jobs in publishing, magazines, newspapers, etc. That has changed.</p>
<p>College is not only an economic investment. Any discussion regarding the jobs and money making/business opportunities is totally ignoring the far greater intellectual value of college. Making a good wage is good but college is for so much more. Think Ivory Tower and the vast benefits of expanding your mind. No one can take this from you. I get tired of people looking at college as if it were a business proposition. There is so much more to life.</p>
<p>There are people who complain about their college loans even with jobs…</p>
<p>College is worth it. Going in to massive debt is not and never has been. No one should be taking out more than the Direct loans- even for a Masters. You CAN find another way. </p>
<p>I’m on another forum right now with people who are also pursuing their MPH come fall. The debt means NOTHING to them whereas with me it was one of my top two factors. They’re thinking nothing of taking out 60k a year in debt when the average MPH starting salary is around 50k. No matter how much I try to make them understand what their monthly payments are going to be, they want to follow the “dream”. </p>
<p>You know what? I have no sympathy. Maybe, MAYBE, for the 18 year olds who have never had a bank account or a monthly payment of any sort (though I blame the parents for that) I have some sympathy. But by the time you’re pursuing your Master’s? Nope. None.</p>
<p>With that said, I also think a huge part of this problem comes from the fact that we’re lagging behind the rest of the world in health insurance coverage. Forcing these people to pay out of pocket costs big $$$ and might make them take jobs just for the benefits. If we could just catch up to the rest of the world, this problem might partially be alleviated.</p>
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<p>Realistically, most college students go to college with intent to upgrade their earning power, with intellectual development as a nice additional benefit. The job prospects force their way into the decision for most college students due to the need to pay off student loan debt after graduation.</p>