AKA the JHU pre-med/BCE dilemma
Interestingly, the average GPA for Physics at Cal is higher than Integrative Biology. It also has a higher standard deviation in GPA.
1 Like
There is probably some student self-selection effect, and the effect of grading in different departments. Note that harsh versus lenient grading is not the only aspect of “rigor” that may exist.
Interestingly, astrophysics seems to have lower GPAs than physics.
1 Like
My kid’s gpa is probably low for physics at cal, but I think it’s hard to account for the school a kid comes from as well as all the intangibles.
This is an interesting question. S22 is a rising sophomore at UMass Amherst. He finished his freshman year with a 3.8 which is better than he did in HS. I don’t think he has found it challenging thus far. That being said, as a freshman he had mainly intro level classes so I’ll be interested to see how it goes this year. I’ll add - he lived with mainly CS/Engineering students last year (he’s not either) and told me that they were working extremely hard - most found the classes extremely challenging.
What courses / major, and were they ones where level of high school preparation mattered?
He’s a psychology major (wants to be a therapist). He tested (via high AP scores) out of his intro to Psychology course as well as the freshman writing requirement. He did take two 300 level psychology courses 2d semester and got "A"s in both. Along with the psychology courses he took introductory Physics, the biology of cancer, a sociology course (can’t remember the specifics), Greek history and a required DEI course (something with a global focus). He has finished all his general education requirements except for math - which he will cover via a statistics course this year which is also required for his major. He did well enough on the math placement exam to allow that. I will say that he is a very strong writer and has a really good memory which helps a lot in much of college work. He attended a very good public high school in MA.
2 Likes
I also think that some T-20/IVY/Selective schools are more difficult than others not because they need to be but because they feel like they must be.
I have three kids (all my kids had similar stats from GPA to test scores) all engineering. First kid graduated from a big SEC school. Fantastic GPA, professors (in her opinion) were very focused on students learning the material… for the most part, and spending extra time in office hours etc. Second kid went to a T-15 school and struggled (more TA’s grading work and running office hours…not as many professors with availability), graduated middle of the pack. He said that the classes, at least initially, were all graded on the curve, with the professors establishing “how many A’s” to give out, whereas at the big SEC school it was not arbitrary, there was a scale and whether there were 2 A’s in a class of 50 it was a known quantity. Also, at the selective school, students were accustomed to taking a class “for practice” over the summer, or repeating classes that they had already mastered in order to maintain their GPA. The professors at the T-15 school were also more inclined to make math/science classes theoretical in order to account for half of the class that had already mastered the material. Lastly, I do think (according to my kids friends) some T-20 schools that make getting good grades easier. The difficult part is getting accepted, but after that hurdle the schools want students to do well academically and make concessions.
Anecdotally both of the two older kids work for aerospace engineering companies and are doing very well. I think that having the academic horsepower is much more important than the school’s ranking or perceived ranking.
2 Likes
Do you feel both students achieved equal mastery of the material? Was the student at the T-15 better prepared? It seems in terms of outcomes, they have done equally well - congratulations!
Note that “SEC school” could cover a wide range of admission selectivity (e.g. Vanderbilt versus Mississippi State).
1 Like
This thread is reinforcing the stark and dramatic differences in K-12 education in the US. Focusing on the high school level, some are rigorous and prepare students for college well, basically setting them up for success. Many high schools are failing at preparing students for their next step, whether that’s college or something else.
IMO engineering is a tough major everywhere, even at schools that have 90%+ acceptance rates, say Kansas State or Iowa State for example. Outside of engineering or tech focused schools, there is college grade inflation as well, including at the most selective schools.
Some schools that may be more academically rigorous than their selectivity level (not sure if there’s an acceptance rate cutoff people are thinking of): RPI, Thomas Jefferson, Allegheny, Wooster, Any of the ‘Mines’ schools, Reed, Purdue, Baylor, WPI, St. John’s College, Lehigh, Agnes Scott. I am sure there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind first.
6 Likes
Yes. Not Vanderbilt
Yes, both did equally well and are in similar jobs at their respective companies. My SEC girl is headed to a PHD program at a T-10 university… fully funded…
3 Likes
My D look a Multivariable Calculus dual enrollment at a local university the fall sememster of her senior year. She did very well and didn’t find it overly challenging. A year later she retook it at her T20 - it had been a year since she’d taken it and as an engineering major she wanted to make sure she had a good math foundation. It was HARD. It ended up being her lowest grade in all her college classes. D felt she was expected to understand and apply the material at a totally different level the second time around.
That said, I don’t think it’s fair to assume that rankings totally correlate with rigor. I don’t think you need to go to a T20 school in order to experience difficult classes!
I also think the rigor of different subjects will vary. My daughter found some of her math and science classes, particularly those freshmen and sophomore year, extremely challenging. But there were a couple of classes in other subjects she took over the years that she thought were quite easy. But she was mostly taking intro and lower level classes in those subjects.
In retrospect it’s funny that in her engineering classes the “lower level” classes tended to be the most difficult and as she progressed to the higher level classes she struggled less. But other subjects it seems like the intro classes are considered easier and the higher level more of a challenge.
1 Like
D20 saw massive variations in language preparation during her year abroad. Within a cohort of dozens to hundreds of kids, you would have students who had all taken world language classes for multiple years in college and some were still at, “read a menu but can’t carry on a conversation” level and others were conversationally fluent as well as being able to write at a high academic level as well.
Interestingly, there was almost no correlation at all between the selectivity of the US schools represented abroad and the rigor of the language classes. Many of the students from the most selective schools had the worst language abilities.
3 Likes
This is so major dependent and student dependent…but to answer the question, I think selectivity is a terrible way to evaluate rigor and quality.
Missouri S and T? Baruch? Brooklyn college? Wittenberg? All of these colleges have exceptional faculty, intellectually oriented students and offer tons of rigor.
Classics, philosophy, architecture…there is usually no easy way through these majors regardless of which college you are talking about.
I am not popular on CC for pointing out that there are numerous ways to make a less selective college more rigorous…or to suggest that a student who is looking for a major that doesn’t have reading, doesn’t require math, won’t have to write papers or enter a lab might not be ready (right now) for college. But there it is
6 Likes
Hmm. I think rigor and preparing one for the workforce can be two different things.
I went to a highly selective SLAC and received a rigorous liberal arts education. It honed my critical thinking and writing skills, in particular.
My kid is attending a large public university on a pre-professional track.
Her education is vastly more practical than mine was in terms of preparing her for corporate America. Perhaps my education strengthened my creative problem-solving and communication muscles more — perhaps not.
But I don’t know that it makes much of a difference because so much comes back to how the individual student is wired. My kid is a decent thinker and writer without the help of my brilliant liberal arts professors and I managed to pick up the skills I needed in the workplace having taken zero of the practical courses that currently fill her schedule.
I wish I could have had ALL the experiences: my own SLAC, a practical state university program, and the experiences available at a highly selective public university and Ivy. In the end, they all have their advantages and I don’t think any is categorically the “best.”
9 Likes
- Really common and at high magnitude.
- Moderately true. Different subjects and majors matter a lot.
In my direct experience, was there a difference between Bryn Mawr and Harvard in psychology? Hell yes. In chemistry or Classics the contrast would have been much smaller.
I have a lot of students who run into disciplinary trouble at top-25 schools, and they have to transfer to much less selective schools. When they’re worried about finding friends who run at their speed, I tell them, “Sign up for Arabic.” There may be a few slow kids there the first day, but they aren’t going to make it to week two. It’s a wonderful luxury at Harvard that you don’t have to search for bright kids, but you can find them at any decent-sized school if you put in the effort.
3 Likes
I transferred (business major) after freshman year and definitely saw an increased level of rigor, vastly improved quality of (most) professors, as well as an overall (not every individual of course) stronger peer group going from a very good state school to an Ivy (the Ivy was unaffordable at the start of my college career). One of the best moves I ever made.
1 Like
100%. From our HS the typical response from kids after a year or two into college is that college is, on balance, easier. Kids enjoy (way) more free time and have an easier time handling the workload even if the material itself is nominally more advanced. HS is a tippy top boarding school, so, yeah.
3 Likes