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<p>And those costs become part of the AFC (actual family contribution) for a commuter student, even though they may be distributed (hidden) in various other categories of the household budget (grocery bill, utility bill, car fuel, insurance, and maintenance, transit tickets, etc.) instead of being an obvious one big check that one writes for room and board. Just because these costs are hidden does not mean that they are not real.</p>
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<p>However, is a group of 20 people who look different but all grew up in families wealthy enough to get no financial aid from HYS and went to top end private prep schools more diverse than a group of 20 people from the full range of family incomes and parental professions, including urban and rural backgrounds, regardless of what they look like?</p>
<p>Of course, the former kind of diversity is easier for highly selective colleges to implement than the latter kind of diversity, due to the financial aid costs of the latter kind of diversity.</p>
<p>Agreed, and these schools all have huge endowments.</p>
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<p>Great. And since Yale clearly has the money to pay to attract ‘different’ people, let them use it. (Don’t make Joe Six Pack contribute.)</p>
<p>Regardless, I challenge this pablum.</p>
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<p>Please point me towards the academic research that demonstrates this “imperative.” :)</p>
<p>You just want to tell them it’s a nice try to get us to fund your six or seven figure administrative salary. Thank you for playing. Next!</p>
<p>Actually similarity in socioeconomic background still does not discount the importance of diversity based on race. We are using a college advisor whose sole specialty is guiding minority students to top tier schools (and she is white, rather wealthy.) As she explained to us, “no one has had the experience of walking in your shoes, hearing the comments, judgements and the resulting affect on your perspective.”<br>
As to the question of research supporting the effect on learning by diversity in the classroom, I do not have the relevant information. But as I mentioned, the presentations at all of the schools we visited was the same. And these are the TOP institutions in the nation. Are you doubting their knowledge and research?</p>
<p>Diversity is great. </p>
<p>Let the privates AND the publics charge no more than Pell for the Pell eligible students. </p>
<p>I’ve said this on here about the publics for a while. But if the privates think they need the diversity? They will have no issue attracting qualified students if they charge no more than what the Pell student can afford.</p>
<p>Actually, the big financial aid push at those institutions are a farce. They enroll less than 10% Pell and 40% in the 1% tax bracket. It’s a game.</p>
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<p>I’m questioning whether any such research exists.</p>
<p>The colleges could just want diversity for diversity’s sake; it’s the “right” thing to do…it makes 'em feel good. (Of course, instate publics have internal political pressures with which to deal…)</p>
<p>But since they are the “TOP institutions in the nation” they can clearly craft whatever class that they choose, which includes faculty brats, football/hockey players, future poet laureates, thespians, etc. </p>
<p>But based on research? Hmmmm</p>
<p>btw: if you really want to see how much they value and desire to recruit economic diversity, take a look-see at the travel schedule of the adcoms. How many meeting nights do they hold in the inner city? Any inner city? Then count up the number of info nights held at private prep schools in tony suburbs. :rolleyes:</p>
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<p>Most of them are between 10% and 20% Pell grant students. They do, however, enroll a large percentage of list price paying students (probably with family incomes in the top 3% or so range).</p>
<p>[Economic</a> Diversity Among the Top 25 Ranked Schools | Rankings | Top National Universities | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools]Economic”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity-among-top-ranked-schools)</p>
<p>As a practical matter, it is just harder for the Pell grant student to achieve the qualifications needed for admission to the super-selective schools (e.g. may have to work for pay instead of doing an EC to the state/national level; may not have access to quality K-12 education).</p>
<p>It’s not very hard to rank work for pay up there with first violin on holistic admissions. </p>
<p>But it is what it is. </p>
<p>I’m currently most concerned with state schools and getting the tuition to the Pell level at these places. </p>
<p>I’m trying to talk some local candidates into this as a part of their platform. To little effect so far.</p>
<p>bluebayou you are absolutely correct about the lack of socioeconomic diversity regarding the high schools at which they visit. This is party of the reason our coach started helping these students - no one was informing them of their opportunities.
As to the actual research, curious as to why you assume there is none? It seems you have no more information whether is the case than I do, so you rely on your innate belief system which is obviously anecdotal. I in contrast, always defer to those in academia who are actually witnessing the learning process, irregardless of what I may choose to believe.</p>
<p>I really wouldn’t “always defer to those in academia” on any subject related to the price of academia. </p>
<p>You do realize that all that middle class financial aid at the Ivies came about because of a law stating that any not for profit hedgefund. Er I mean school. Had to pay out five percent of its endowments or be taxed, right?</p>
<p>Actually no, poetgirl, I was not aware of such a law. But it is irrelevant to the discussion we’ve been having regarding the virtue (or lack there of) of diversity in the classroom as it affects the learning process. I realize we’ve gone a bit off topic, and your point relates more directly to the initial purpose of this thread.
To that end, I have no issue with the brunt of the cost of financial assistance to underrepresented minorities being thrust upon the institution of higher learning. What we found is that costs are on a sliding scale, based on income. As solidly middle class, my family will owe under $20 annually should my daughter be accepted to any of the top tier schools to which she is applying. At least that’s according to the financial calculators now required by law on the associated websites.</p>
<p>poetgirl, I would like to see something about this law. This, in the Atlantic last month, appears to state otherwise.
[Is</a> Harvard So Rich That It Should Literally Be Illegal? - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic](<a href=“Is Harvard So Rich That It Should Literally Be Illegal? - The Atlantic”>Is Harvard So Rich That It Should Literally Be Illegal? - The Atlantic)</p>
<p>No. You’re right. I forgot they never passed that law. </p>
<p>they don’t actually spend the full 5%. </p>
<p>It’s the reason people keep questioning their tax exempt status. </p>
<p>My mistake.</p>
<p>*
We are using a college advisor whose sole specialty is guiding minority students to top tier schools (and she is white, rather wealthy.) </p>
<p>As solidly middle class, my family will owe under $20 annually should my daughter be accepted to any of the top tier schools to which she is applying*</p>
<p>there is something wrong when someone who is “solidly middle class” would only have to pay less than $20 after a bunch of need based aid if any of that is fed grant money. …especially a family that can afford to hire a “college advisor.”</p>
<p>*Quote:
Are you doubting their knowledge and research?</p>
<p>=============
I’m questioning whether any such research exists.</p>
<p>The colleges could just want diversity for diversity’s sake; it’s the “right” thing to do…it makes 'em feel good. (Of course, instate publics have internal political pressures with which to deal…)*</p>
<p>Absolutely agree. I doubt such research exists. Diversity may be desirable, but I doubt that there’s any evidence that better research, better education, etc is really the result of making sure that everyone’s faces aren’t too similar. It may be the right thing to do, but to suggest that that these top schools have research that shows much/anything is doubtful.</p>
<p>Not $20, $20,000! My bad - wouldn’t that be something!</p>
<p>Well, re “diversity” per se adds value to the educational outcomes of students, this is what the Michigan brief argues:</p>
<p>SOCIAL SCIENCE STUDIES SUPPORT THE COMPELLING GOVERNMENTAL INTEREST IN PROMOTING DIVERSITY. … … … 13</p>
<pre><code>Student Body Diversity Improves Educational Outcomes. … … … 14
Student Body Diversity Improves Classroom Learning Environments. … … … 14
Diverse Learning Environments Promote Critical Thinking Skills. … … … 17
Cross-Racial Interaction Has Positive Effects on Retention, College Satisfaction, Self-Confidence, Interpersonal Skills, and Leadership. … … … 19
Student Body Diversity Promotes the Creation of Initiatives That Lead to Improved Educational Outcomes. … … … 20
Student Body Diversity Promotes Democratic Values and Increased Civic Engagement. … … … 21
Diverse Learning Environments Challenge Students to Consider Alternative Viewpoints and Develop Tolerance for Differences … … … 21
Diverse Learning Environments Can Increase Participation in Civic Activities. … … … 23
Student Body Diversity Prepares Students for a Diverse Society and Workforce. … … … 24
</code></pre>
<p>See:</p>
<p>[Gratz</a> Harvard Amicus Brief](<a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/legal/gra_amicus/gra_harvard.html]Gratz”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/legal/gra_amicus/gra_harvard.html)</p>
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<p>Absolutely no doubt that it does. But so does a bunch of other things that colleges value, (based on anecdotes). But the question is whether the public should pay for low income students to attend a private college so that the full pay (aka wealthy) students can avail themselves of that economic diversity.</p>
<p>And the answer is…wait for it… No</p>