<p>I don’t need a survey to know that students are often stunned when a college gives them nothing or significantly gaps them. As I said, I’d love a dollar for every time I’ve heard a student express their indignation only to retort something like the following: “what were they thinking, do they think I am rich or something”</p>
<p>Well, your earlier post claimed that “the public” thinks. Not surprised that young, innocent, naive students think this.</p>
<p>It is good that some of the associations like this provides financial help.I think whoever plans this a good person and a the same time very intelligent. It is like hitting two birds with one stone. They will let students to student to go to school with their financial support, which will help students, and the same time benefit them because in this way many students will come to their schools to for their help. A wise basis of planning and sharing.</p>
<p>“Without some Federal money, the most elite schools will be even more skewed toward being bastions for the privileged than they already are. Colleges will back off assisting high need kids without some federal help. I just don’t see our most elite institutions only serving affluent Caucasians who come privileged backgrounds as something that benefits society, let alone the institutions.”</p>
<p>How about those elite institutions figure out a way to deliver their product so that its price is less than the median family annual income in the U.S.? If your product costs more than a Mercedes, don’t be surprised if your customers tend to be upscale. Duh!!! </p>
<p>The U.S. already spends more (as a percentage of GDP) on higher ed than any of our peer nations – double Germany and the UK – but get less out of that spending. What we have is an extremely expensive but inefficient higher ed system that produces poor results.</p>
<p>I am the most prolific poster on a thread about whether Vassar is truly need-blind on the Vassar page. In it, I’ve been arguing that Vassar is no longer need-blind, at least not in spirit. </p>
<p>As noted here, Vassar has increased the number of students who qualify for Pell Grants. However, the current Vassar freshman class also includes a much reduced percentage of students on financial aid. The percentage of students on financial aid (Pell Grant students plus middle class students on partial financial aid scholarships) has dropped from 62.5% (as indicated in an article written by the president of Vassar two years ago) to 56% this year (as noted on Vassar’s website). This means, of course, that the enrollment of middle class students who require financial aid (though not full financial aid packages) in order to be able to attend has dropped dramatically and the number of wealthy students as increased by about 50 students out of 666 enrolled freshmen at a time when the number was supposed to drop to make room for Pell Grant students.</p>
<p>I am a lone voice on that page, with everyone heaping criticism on me. </p>
<p>In this forum, I suspect everyone will heap criticism on me for the opposite reason!</p>
<p>I am surprised no one has mentioned in this thread that studies have shown that low-income students who attend public universities are much less likely to graduate from college than poor students who attend private colleges. That’s a big reason to want to encourage private colleges and universities to admit more Pell Grant students. These studies were written up in a prominent section of the NYT (the front page?) that caught my attention very quickly that morning probably about a year ago when I opened my newspaper.</p>
<p>However, I wish the president of Vassar would make noise about the need to support these students better in the public sector, too. The UCs alone probably enroll more low-income students than are enrolled in private colleges through the Questbridge program for low-income students. Why aren’t any of the presidents of private colleges and universities talking about ways to assist these students at public colleges, too? The difference the private colleges make, while important, is not the only or even the primary solution to the problem.</p>
<p>The problem at public colleges, however, is that we are encouraging students who graduate from high school with minimal skills to pursue “liberal arts”, and we are wasting a lot of money that could be used to assist talented low-income students. The students who have not been able to show in 12 years of school that they are college material should be offered vocational training, as is the case in Europe. </p>
<p>The president of Vassar suggests that socioeconomic diversity be included in the US News & World Report rankings. Such a measure would provide an incentive for colleges to find ways to increase admission of Pell Grant students.</p>
<p>In addition, I’ve read that contrary to expectations, alums at Amherst have been donating more money, not less money, to help support efforts to enroll PG students. A friend told me that Vassar has had a terrific fund-raising year this past year, which coincides with the efforts to enroll more PG students. They raised a lot more money than they had even aimed to raise.</p>
<p>To what degree are these mostly left-leaning colleges successfully using the enrollment of Pell Grant students and veterans to appeal to their alums to donate more money? Are they getting back more additional money than it costs them to provide 10% more students with full financial aid packages (so they can increase enrollment of PG students from 10%, for example, to 20%)?</p>
<p>Even when it comes to federal money, we can be creative about using it to provide incentives to colleges to admit more Pell Grant students. Maybe instead of helping colleges to admit more PG students, we should penalize colleges that don’t. Colleges have to learn to cut costs anyway.</p>
<p>Is Vassar going to use part of its fundraising windfall this year to increase the number of middle class students on financial aid so they don’t have to “over-admit” wealthy students to compensate for the admission of PG students?</p>
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<p>The UCs do tend to meet in-state (FAFSA-based) need, though with a relatively high student contribution ($8,500 to $10,000 – direct loan and work study). In California, the CSU system is about twice as large as the UC system; in-state financial aid students will likely find commuter CSUs cheaper than UCs but residential CSUs more expensive. Both systems are dwarfed by the community colleges which offer both transfer-prep and various associates and certificate programs.</p>
<p>However, California is just one state. Many other states’ public universities do not even come close to meeting in-state need (Pennsylvania and Illinois are typical examples).</p>
<p>The schools’ net price calculators shine some light on what was previously a rather opaque situation in terms of the schools’ financial aid policies.</p>
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<p>Last year, Vassar gave internationals, who don’t qualify for “Federal money”, $5M in merit aid, or 10% of its financial aid budget…</p>
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<p>Vassar is a very small college, enrolling ~600 kids per year. From a public policy perspective, why should anyone (outside of Poughkeepsie) care what Vassar’s student body is comprised of? More importantly, with a high school dropout rate of 50% in many of America’s cities, we should send more money to Vassar and others like it?</p>
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<p>Wow, I’d love to see a link if you remember where it was. (I just don’t buy the “study” point because self-selection is huge for private colleges, particularly for the poor, many of which HAVE to work to send money home to support the family.)</p>
<p>I’ve wondered, too, about aid to international students. However, I seem to remember from my review of Vassar’s statistics that about half of Vassar’s international students have dual citizenship. Some might also be Americans living abroad and the children of people working for the US government. </p>
<p>Bluebayou, my blood boiled when I realized that Vassar increased admission of wealthy students this year, at the same time they increased admission of Pell Grant students and left the middle class squeezed out of spots from both ends. I am not trying to defend Vassar in a knee-jerk sort of way, but are you sure you are talking about aid solely to internationals who are not US citizens?</p>
<p>Vassar enrolls about 660 freshmen per year. 666 freshmen are currently enrolled. Is that what you meant? </p>
<p>I’ve tried looking on the NYT website many times for the article. Sorry I cannot find it. Maybe someone else knows what I am talking about. I’d like to read it again myself, too.</p>
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<p>Nope. If they have dual (with US), they are therefore eligible for federal loans/grants (and any state money). Thus, “international” for the purposes of common data set, is any non-US citizen (including any undocumenteds). </p>
<p>Vassar gives away $5M in aid to international students every year, --they spend their own resources because they believe that such diversity is ‘valuable’ to their school – and then their Prez has the audacity to say that US taxpayers need to pony up more? :rolleyes:</p>
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Best post in thread!</p>
<p>Usually, merit aid to internationals is a tactic to increase tuition revenue to the school.</p>
<p>Give a partial scholarship to an out-of-state, better off or international student and that student will come and be a “full payor” for the balance without asking for any need-based aid.</p>
<p>It has little to do with diversity and everything with finding students who can and will pay tuition dollars – ideally the $60k sticker price but more often something like $30-50k.</p>
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<p>Uh, no. According to Vassar’s common data set, the “average” need-based aid given to Internationals (who were needy, as defined by Vassar), was $48,300. Thus, those 92 individuals only had to pay $9k apiece.</p>
<p>*Quote:
Without some Federal money…</p>
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Last year, Vassar gave internationals, who don’t qualify for “Federal money”, $5M in merit aid, or 10% of its financial aid budget…*</p>
<p>There you go. While it’s Vassar’s “right” to give more of its money to int’ls, it could have the policy that int’ls should have to pay “at least” the amount that a domestic student would get in federal aid. </p>
<p>For a 0 EFC student, that would be about $5600k in Pell …and could be more if a student also is getting SEOG and Work-Study. </p>
<p>Vassar has decided to go “no loan” for low income students. That is THEIR choice. They could include $5k-8k or so in loans (Stafford & Perkins) …which are all federal aid that they’re choosing not to use for those earning under $60k (or whatever their latest policy is). </p>
<p>So, what V is saying…we want more “free money” from the govt’." </p>
<p>The idea that a domestic student would have to contribute $12k-15k+ in federal aid (some loans) while an int’l student would get all of that for free, seems odd to me.</p>
<p>I am not talking about monetary support, though monetary support is, of course, crucial, too. I am talking about emotional and academic support and the need low income students often have for adults who can help show them the way. Those of us who grew up in families with parents who were either college graduates or were people who sincerely understood the need to encourage their children academically cannot necessarily appreciate the needs of some of these low-income students.</p>
<p>For me, this problem hit home a few years ago, when I read a series of articles in the NYT about a boy/young man in Appalachia who had dropped out of college. He was considered a bit of a mystery from an academic perspective, because his older sister had been very successful. She had gone to the local state university, where she majored in sociology, and had then gone on for a PhD in sociology. She became an academic and her field of interest was education and communities like the one in which she grew up. The younger brother had encountered some problems in college. What was his parents’ response? They told him that the local warehouse back home was hiring, and not to worry, he could always come home and get a job. He dropped out and came home.</p>
<p>When our kids encounter problems in college, we tell them to talk to their advisor, professor, or the dean. “Get help anyway you can. Stick it out. You can do it.” I tell my daughter, who is enrolled at a top 20 small liberal arts college, “I am paying lots of money for you to be able to go to your professors and get whatever help you need. Take advantage of the opportunity.” </p>
<p>The older sister/sociologist said her parents’ reaction was typical. This happens all the time in Appalachia. The parents think they are supporting their children by saying, “It’s okay. You don’t have to go to college. You can always come home.”</p>
<p>Students drop out of college all the time for financial reasons. It’s true that Vassar and the other elite colleges would try hard not to allow this to happen. But there’s a lot more the private colleges can provide these students that the state schools are not providing. We need to find ways to help the promising low income students in state schools who are getting the wrong message from home when they are get homesick in college. </p>
<p>Yes, it takes money, but I think we would have the money if we did not pursue our dream to enroll all American high school graduates in college. We should focus on those who show promise, provide them with the academic, emotional, and financial support they need and set up vocational programs for the rest.</p>
<p>If Vassar is giving 10% of it’s FA budget to int’ls, then maybe they (and other schools) shouldn’t get any fed aid, because indirectly, the fed aid is helping them do that.</p>
<p>Personally, I’m not fond of FA for int’ls because there seems to be too many loopholes for int’ls to hide money and assets.</p>
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<p>Dual citizens who have US citizenship as one of their citizenships and US citizens living outside of the US are not international students for college financial aid purposes.</p>
<p>US citizens living outside of the US may not have any state residency for state university tuition purposes, but that is not relevant to Vassar.</p>
<p>There is an issue here only if so many talented, low-income students start applying to need-blind full-need colleges that it drives down the number of enrolled full-pay students. I doubt that the College Board will be so wildly successful that the richest colleges won’t be able to adapt. </p>
<p>If it turns out there is that much pent-up demand for qualified low-income students to attend selective schools, great. However, in the unlikely event there is new federal student aid, it wouldn’t be targeted only at private colleges.</p>
<p>Vassar’s president wrote in September 2011 that “our data indicate that for students with SATs (and ACT equivalents) of 1420 or above, 12.8 percent come from the bottom 40 percent of the income distribution. (<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2011/09/12/essay_suggesting_a_better_way_for_u_s_news_to_rank_colleges)”>http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2011/09/12/essay_suggesting_a_better_way_for_u_s_news_to_rank_colleges)</a>”</p>
<p>That’s a lot of students. </p>
<p>The mean CR and M scores in Vassar’s current freshman class are 700 and 687, which don’t sound particularly high to me. The low-income students in the above statistic would raise Vassar’s average SAT scores.</p>
<p>But I agree that the College Board will probably not be so successful at getting these students to apply to elite colleges. Right now, I suspect the colleges are getting applications we might call “low hanging fruit”. For example, 30% of students at Stuyvesant High School in NYC are economically deprived students, and all the elite colleges get numerous applications from Stuyvesant. Someone on another thread told me yesterday that 20% of the students at most of the top prep schools are economically deprived students on full scholarships. I am sure these students are also applying to elite colleges.</p>
<p>If you look through College Confidential threads where admitted students post their statistics in the spring, you would find a mix of students who list their Pell Grant status as a hook in admissions. Some definitely have SAT/ACT scores that sound low, and others have scores that are at least average for the school to which they have been accepted.</p>
<p>If the college board is successful at encouraging these students to apply to elite colleges, I don’t think the colleges would have room for those with SAT scores at the low end who are getting admitted today.</p>
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<p>Well, nosering, I can see why CC’ers in your other thread are “heaping criticism” on you. You seem to have a particular fondness for claims that are confused, unsubstantiated, or flat out false. Coupled with your apparent antipathy towards Vassar, this could cause others to perceive you as a less than credible contributor. One has to wonder who in your family was denied admission to Vassar for you to have taken such a personal interest in the school . . .</p>
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<p>For the record, the only aid offered by Vassar is need-based aid. It does not award merit aid to anyone, international or other.</p>
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<p>Why do you continue to mention CB. Other than raking in millions for offfering tests, CB has absolutely nothing to do with college admissions.</p>
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<p>And the pure speculation of a 17/18-year old is fact? (How many of those who believed that the Pell was a hook were also URM?)</p>
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<p>But only if they attend, which is nNot likely, because Pell students with those numbers who are also URM are off to HYPS, Williams, Amherst, et al. (Just because they apply to Vassar, doesn’t mean that Vassar is their first choice. Poughkeepsie is not a magnet like Boston or NYC.)</p>
<p>On the Parents of the HS Class of 2014 thread, parents write about how they are helping their kids with glitches on the Common App, nagging them to finish their essays, making sure they eat breakfast and have their admission tickets, calculators, etc. when they took their SAT and/or ACT. Who is helping the kids whose parents don’t speak English, who didn’t go to college themselves and have no clue? Is this not a huge disadvantage?</p>