<p>jeffandann, you are putting words in her mouth. You are using a silly straw man argument. Stop it.</p>
<p>Just thought I’d throw this in:</p>
<p>[This</a> Bright-Eyed Young Man Was Utterly Demolished by Student Loans - Yahoo! Finance](<a href=“http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-bright-eyed-young-man-was-utterly-demolished-by-student-loans.html]This”>This Bright-Eyed Young Man Was Utterly Demolished by Student Loans)</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, in the real world scarce resources can be allocated either one of two ways:</p>
<p>1) via supply and demand, i.e. the price mechanism or
2) via coercion, i.e. a government planner deciding who gets what and what goes where and how much of what to make.</p>
<p>So if the demand is not enough to justify the supply of vestigial departments, then either the departments must be done away with or the government must use tax-payer money to keep them afloat, against peoples’ wishes (as expressed via their choices).</p>
<p>@TomServo - FYI, since top MT programs are more selective than the top Med schools, I think we can safely say there’s no shortage of demand at present. Also, no one here has suggested taking on lots of debt for an MT degree (or a culinary degree) so I don’t see the relevance of your link.</p>
<p>I pity those who measure the worth of an education (or a life or a nation or…) solely on ROI. If you do so, you are missing A LOT!!</p>
<p>i’m sitting here honestly laughing at the answers of people who have no experience with a child in the arts giving all this advice.
big whoop. your child is getting a bs in engineering. my father is an engineer and constantly interviews kids fresh out of school…he only ever thinks a small percentage of them are as qualified as their degree and resume make them sound. i’m currently taking a physics class for engineer students…according to my father, my university, while not being one of the top engineering schools is still very good. except i sit in class everyday baffled at these kids. i may as well somehow squeeze an engineering major in…i’ll probably be at the top of the the class judging from my experience so far. it’s a piece of cake compared with my life in an acting program.<br>
none of the kids who have graduated from my acting program are currently working at McDonalds. sure, i do go to quite a reputable program that has ties with a top regional theatre, but kids i know who have graduated from other schools are not working at fast food joints. yea some of them may be having a difficult time getting work as actors, but they’re all just starting out. the job market for anyone nowadays is difficult.<br>
get off your highfalutin a**es and stop judging other people for their life choices.
at least we have the balls to try to pursue something so risky.<br>
every single time my cousin sees me, she tells me how much she admires me for pursuing the arts…and that she’s envious of the guts i have. she’s currently a very successful financial consultant…she got her business degree from berkeley and within 3 yrs, she was hired to work for a big international firm and gets flown all over eu to work with companies like coca-cola and universal music. but she’s always saying that despite how comfortable she is and that she’s lucky to make a good living, she regrets not pursuing painting.<br>
it’s true. people need to be realistic when pursuing fields that aren’t “practical”, but if they’re smart about the way they’re doing it, who cares. stop being so condescending.
i think half of the kids in my physics class aren’t very bright, but i’m not gonna go up to them and say “don’t pursue engineering…frankly you’re not smart enough.” that’s none of my business…and maybe in a couple years, they’ll have grown and will change my opinion. but it’s certainly not my place to judge them the way you’re judging performance majors.
many bfa programs are very successful at turning out well trained individuals who eventually make a life long career in the arts. there is solid proof in the actors who are currently working consistently in the theatre. many of them don’t have degrees, but many of them do. there is a reason why so many hs students want to go to these programs. they see that many of their favorite performers…performers who have careers that they dream of…that many of them got degrees in MT.<br>
and to whoever said that people who are THAT talented don’t need to be going to school to be studying MT…well then Meryl Streep obviously isn’t very talented cause she felt she needed to go to Yale to get her MFA in Acting. I doubt any of those legendary actors out there who went to Acting school really grew much while they were in school. They just thought it’d be a wise decision for them to spend money and time to train when they knew they were going to be extremely successful already.</p>
<p>When Winston Churchill was Prime Minister and he was told that there were going to be major cuts in arts and culture because of the mounting costs of World War II, he responded with a simple reply, ‘Then what are we fighting for?’</p>
<p>There is nothing at all wrong with pursuing a career in the arts, but why should an expensive university degree be the route you take?</p>
<p>And that Churchill quote is apocryphal, and it implies that “arts and culture” must be supported by the government.</p>
<p>AND if “arts and culture” have to be supported by the government because there is so little interest among the general public (otherwise it wouldn’t need such support), then you are ripping off tax-payers to put resources into something they don’t approve of. More to the point, the arts are a huge industry. Movies and music and video games and books make a lot of money. But other forms of art, like plays and stage musicals, aren’t nearly as popular as they once were. This is just society changing its preferences, but this decline in popularity of <em>one kind</em> of art does not mean the arts are suffering, nor does it justify using government money (which is what the quote is implying) to pay for somebody’s very expensive hobby.</p>
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<p>That makes no sense. How does the selectivity of the school mean there is high demand? Given that plays and stage musicals often have to be subsidized by the local government (outside of certain theater-loving regions) because it is unprofitable otherwise suggests that demand for plays and musicals is low, not high.</p>
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<p>More straw man arguments.</p>
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<p>I have degrees in both Theatre and Engineering. You can do either without an expensive university degree, but in both cases your lifetime career options without the degree will be limited.</p>
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<p>There is more demand than supply. What part of that don’t you understand?</p>
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<p>That is not a “straw man argument”, it is a statement of fact. I do, in fact, pity those who don’t grasp the value of art, the environment, relationships, free time, altruism and the many other important things not encompassed by ROI.</p>
<pre><code>All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander (or study MT) are lost.
</code></pre>
<p>Here’s the thing: the detractors of mt on this thread are suggesting there’s “no ROI” in Mt, and the proponents of MT/arts are saying there are things beyond ROI.
But I’ll go so far as to say the definition of ROI is corrupted to begin with. It takes more than money to study – the investment part of ROI is not strictly fiscal, ergo NEITHER is the retun! The fact that we’re all willing to work within that lopsided framework reveals a level of insidious ignorance that is the underpinning of a society that shows all the hallmarks of decline. So it’s not just the ignorant comments that irritate me; it’s the fact that we live in a society where such ignorance continues to be nurtured and the puppets themselves are unable to perceive that they are being manipulated by a very select few whose interest is not collective. Home of the brave and free my arse ;)</p>
<p>And what’s even more irritating to me is that this viscous cycle of producing lopsided people in a lopsided society accelerates due to lopsided notions about the value of arts in education – sponsored by the miserly notion that there’s “no ROI” to educate children in music, theater and art. DaVinci must be turning in his grave. He was an engineer and an artist, btw. Imagine what that innovator would have said about polarizing STEM and the
arts – it’s ludicrous. </p>
<p>And what’s all this “sacrifice” netting us? 25th worldwide in math, for heaven sake! If you want kids to understand math, develop their brain through music! If you want engineers who innovate, teach them how to create!</p>
<p>As a taxpayer, I too want an ROI on my not-unsubstantial fiscal contributions to this society – I want a world where people aren’t too stupid to respect the holistic nature of education or too ignorant to respect each other’s gifts.</p>
<p>Then again, folks in hell want ice water;)</p>
<p>Ouch. I started this thread, and I certainly never anticipated that it would have turned into name-calling and posts with mean-spirited comments. I started the thread because I was looking for sympathy and advice to deal with the people who rudely told me that my D was wasting her life by going into MT. I was looking for this help from the people who are in the same boat as me: the parents of children who are going into MT or some other field that is a difficult and uncertain path. I have come to rely on CC for advice and sympathy when I can’t really get it anywhere else, b/c so many of you share my dreams and frustrations. </p>
<p>Yes, it is ironic that we now have to defend our children’s dreams on this very thread that I started to get advice on how to deal with people like you. I understand that this is a public forum, and anyone can comment, but … really? Is it necessary to make some of these comments??? I have always though CC - at least the MT thread, where I spend most of my time - has been overwhelmingly helpful and supportive and just plain wonderful. However, some of the comments that this thread has attracted are exactly the opposite. </p>
<p>Maybe one of the moderators should shut this thread down. If you don’t have something helpful to say about the original topic (how to deal with people who try to dash your child’s dreams), pelase keep it to yourself.</p>
<p>Monkey, I think the reason you are seeing some posters on this thread who are not supportive of MT, is that CC featured this thread on its main forum page and so it has brought attention to the thread to other CCers who don’t typically frequent the MT Forum. Thus, there are participants now on the thread who are not necessarily supporters of MT majors, etc. And yes, it is sorta ironic that now the MT folks are “justifying” MT right here!</p>
<p>I’ll play…</p>
<p>TomServo wrote: </p>
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<p>My kid has already graduated college and majored in musical theater and drama. She went to college to become educated. College is about far more than one’s major. She studied other courses and grew her mind and person. A college degree also can serve one well in life and many people who are in the work world do not necessarily work in a job related to their college major. Second, in terms of the arts, my kid learned to become a MUCH better artist in college due to the training she received there. Was she talented before she entered (which was at age 16)? Sure, talented enough to be admitted into a highly competitive degree program. But she was not nearly as talented as an artist as she is now with the training she retrieved in college. She is definitely more employable as a performer with the college degree training than before, not to mention more employable in the work world generally speaking, beyond on stage. So college was about becoming an educated person, as well as becoming a much better artist, and also more employable both in the arts and in any job area. </p>
<p>You also posited earlier that if a kid was talented enough as an actor/singer, he/she would not need the college degree. Would you say that in another field? For instance, someone can be a really good writer and so should they go to college? Good writers who go to college often become much better writers. Same with performing arts. My kid was a pretty good actor before college but our high school didn’t have any drama classes. Her abilities now are way beyond the strong talent she had prior to college. </p>
<p>That said, my kid has been out of college now for three years and is 23 years old. Every job she has held has been in theater and music, in many different capacities both on stage and off. Some jobs she has held likely preferred her to have that degree such as she has worked in college and high school programs for MT. She has supported herself since graduation day IN HER FIELD. I’m not sure that could be said of every college graduate in every major. Is everyone who majored in English, anthropology, History, or math working in a job related to their major?</p>
<p>Maybe the moderators should think more carefully about what threads they highlight on the main page. Yes, this is a public forum and anyone can come over to these sub-threads any time they want, but I think most people value these sub-forums for the knowledge and support from posters with experience in these fields.</p>
<p>SDonCC:
This thread was featured on the main CC forum page by Roger Dooley, the Forum Administrator, not one of the moderators.</p>
<p>Well that explains it (this thread being featured on the main CC forum page). I was wondering yesterday did all these ‘commenters’ wake up on a Saturday morning and think “Hey, I’ll just go over onto the MT thread and bash the MT parents, their children, and their dreams?” Get a life, we all have ours, and we love it!"</p>
<p>BTW The TONY’s are on tonight!! Congrats to all those nominees who got their WORTHWHILE degrees in MT!! And also to those who took a different path! We try to be supportive over here in MT.</p>
<p>And NPH is hosting again…can’t wait for the Tonys! (Thank you everyone for explaining why there was a sudden influx of posters who I had never seen on the MT forum before…)</p>
<p>monkey, it really is ironic how your topic for discussion was thrust into the spotlight, so to speak, and invaded by just the type of uninformed individuals we were discussing! I hope that perhaps they learned a little something, but, honestly, I’m not holding my breath. </p>
<p>And, yes, the Tonys! Can’t wait to watch and hope to be able to see the half of my family who will be in the audience tonight. :)</p>
<p>Momcares, that Tolkien quote is one of my favorites. Thanks for adding it to this discussion.</p>
<p>Here is one of my favorite sites to refer to about jobs with an MT degree; I’ve posted it before but it is especially relevant to this thread. I found it on the SUNY-Fredonia website.</p>
<p>I spoke to a group of business leaders about our college’s theatre program not long ago, and after my remarks we had an interesting discussion about what theatre students do and learn. </p>
<p>The executives were particularly interested in hiring people with qualities like discipline, dependability, loyalty, and leadership, qualities that theatre students learn because they must to be effective members of a production team. </p>
<p>One CEO told the group that her company has found that theatre-trained applicants are valuable employees because they’re energetic, enthusiastic, and able to work under pressure. She pointed out that they generally have polished communications and human relations skills, and they’re experienced at working as members of a team toward a common goal. Most importantly, she said, theatre graduates have a can-do confidence based on their experience of successfully meeting difficult challenges. “Theatre students have done extremely well with us,” she said, “and we usually hire them because they’re well-disciplined workers who learn quickly and give of themselves to the company.”</p>
<p>Another business leader agreed: “We like to hire theatre students,” he said, “but it is a shame that when they apply to us they don’t seem to realize their strengths and advantages.” (Note his last phrase!)</p>
<p>Not all managers are as enlightened as those executives about the value of a theatre education in many apparently unrelated kinds of work (when you apply for a job, you’ll have to teach the personnel manager what special advantages you offer the company.) But the conversation started me thinking about what theatre students learn. </p>
<p>It seems to me that, quite apart from the special skills that they learn to use onstage and backstage, theatre graduates enter the job market with important points in their favor:</p>
<p>First, theatre classes give them the broad vision that all liberal arts students are supposed to acquire in college
Second, theatre’s special hands-on, learn-by-doing environment gives them training, experience and skills that can be valuable in any number of careers.
An examination of a theatre degree’s value in finding work outside of theatre is important both for (a) students who are determined to study theatre and make it their life’s work, and (b) those who are only considering a theatre major among a number of other options. </p>
<p>For group “a,” it is highly likely that at some point in their lives they’ll have to seek non-theatre employment, either permanently or as a way of keeping body and soul together while they pursue a theatre career. For group “b,” “What can you do with a theatre major?” is a question of fundamental importance. </p>
<p>The “two types of jobs”</p>
<p>John Munschauer writes in Jobs for English Majors and Other Smart People that there are just two types of jobs:</p>
<p>“professional work” that requires special training in law school, medical school, architecture school, and so forth, and
“trait-oriented work,” for which employers seek workers with special traits, such as communications skills, imagination, reasoning ability, and sound judgment.
Theatre training can be valuable preparation for many of the innumerable careers that fall in the second category. </p>
<p>You need to be aware of the many skills you learn as a theatre major. Really. You’re a better candidate for employment than perhaps you know. </p>
<p>And you need to be sure you let prospective employers know how well you are prepared-- better prepared, in fact, than students who majored in most other fields. The following discussion points out some special advantages you have–25 of 'em, and you can probably add more.</p>
<p>25 SPECIAL ADVANTAGES THE THEATRE MAJOR HAS— (and may not even know!)</p>
<p>Here’s a list of twenty-five skills, traits, and qualities of personality that are usually well-developed in individuals who complete four years of undergraduate theatre study. Take special note of them. They are more extensive and important than perhaps you recognize. As you think about them, consider how many of these advantages are unique to theatre majors–and that you have far more advantages than majors in most other disciplines.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Oral Communication Skills - Many students find that theatre helps them develop the confidence that’s essential to speaking clearly, lucidly, and thoughtfully. Acting onstage teaches you how to be comfortable speaking in front of large audiences, and some of your theatre classes will give you additional experience talking to groups. Furthermore, your work on crews has taught you that clear, precise, and well-organized oral communications are best. Oral communication skills are so important to some employers that they often send management trainees to special workshops. You already have an advantage. </p></li>
<li><p>Creative Problem Solving Abilities - Most people expect theatre students to exhibit creativity in such areas as acting, design, playwriting or directing, and many companies do recruit creative thinkers. But employers are not always aware that theatre experience also helps you learn creative problem-solving techniques that are applicable to many jobs. Tell them! For one example, tech theatre work–building scenery, hanging lights, making props, running the show, and so on–is a particularly good way to learn how to think on your feet, to identify problems, evaluate a range of possible solutions, and figure out what to do. The same is true of almost every aspect of theatre. Directing. Design. Acting. Playwriting. Management. And more. The point here is that your creative ability, what you’ve learned about using creative processes to solve problems, can be directly applicable to virtually any job you may have. Most major companies believe that a creative problem-solver will become a good employee. That’s you . </p></li>
<li><p>More than “get it done” - But theatre students learn that just “getting it done” isn’t enough. Not at all. It goes beyond that. You learn to do it correctly. In theatre we learn that merely “getting the show on the boards” is pure bush league and totally unacceptable. Whatever your theatrical job–tech, performing, research, management–it has to be done right . You learn to take pride in doing things at your very best level. Of course an employer will value that trait. </p></li>
<li><p>Motivation and Commitment - Being involved in theatre productions and classes demands commitment and motivation. These are qualities that college theatre faculty members and, in some measure, you and your fellow students, probably already possess. By example, we teach each other that success comes to those who are committed to the task at hand. Few other disciplines you study will so strongly help you develop motivation and commitment. Many theatre students learn to transfer that attribute from theatre to other activities such as classes and jobs. For employers, that positive attitude is essential. </p></li>
<li><p>Willingness to Work Cooperatively - Your work in theatre companies teaches you how to work effectively with different types of people–often very different types! Theatre demands that participants work together cooperatively for the production to success; there is no room for “we” versus “they” behavior; the “star” diva is a thing of the past. Your colleagues will usually let you know when you violate the team spirit of a production. In theatre, it’s important that each individual supports the others involved. Employers will be pleased to know that you understand how to be a team player. </p></li>
<li><p>The Ability to Work Independently - In theatre, you’re often assigned tasks that you must complete without supervision. Crew chiefs. Directing. Putting together this flat, finding that prop, working out characterization outside of rehearsals. It’s left up to you to figure out how best to achieve the goal. The ability to work independently is a trait employers look for in their workers. </p></li>
<li><p>Time-budgeting Skills - When you’re a student, being involved in theatre forces you to learn how to budget your time. You need to schedule your days very carefully if you want to keep up your grades while you’re busy with rehearsals, work calls, and the other demands that theatre makes on your time. Good time management skills are enormously important to employers. </p></li>
<li><p>Initiative - Personnel managers call people who approach work with initiative and enterprise “self-starters,” people who do what needs to be done without waiting to be asked, without needing to be told. The complexities of a theatrical production demand individuals who are willing to voluntarily undertake any task that needs to be done in order for the production to succeed. In theatre, we’re all self-starters. We learn how to take initiative, to move a project from initial concept to finality–and to do it well. </p></li>
<li><p>Promptness and Respect for Deadlines - Tardiness is never acceptable in theatre because it shows a lack of self-discipline, and more importantly, a lack of consideration for others. Being late for a rehearsal or a work call or failing to finish an assigned task on time damages a production and adversely affects the work of many other people. Theatre demands that you learn to arrive on time and meet scheduled deadlines. That’s a job-skill. Employers appreciate workers who are on time and do their work as scheduled. </p></li>
<li><p>Acceptance of Rules - In theatre you work within the structure of a set of procedures and rules that deal with everything from shop safety to behavior at auditions, rehearsals and work calls. You learn that you must be a “good follower.” Theatre teaches you the importance of rules, a concept that’s valued in any organization. </p></li>
<li><p>The Ability to Learn Quickly–AND Correctly - Theatre students, whether they’re memorizing lines or learning the technical aspects of a production, must have the ability to absorb a vast quantity of material quickly–and accurately . Your work in college theatre will show that you have the ability to grasp complex matters in a short period of time, a highly-valued trait to employers. Note that part of this ability is another significant trait: knowing how to listen. If you don’t listen, you’re likely to make some major error that will damage the production. Listening is a skill for any job and an employer will respect your ability to listen and comprehend. </p></li>
<li><p>Respect for Colleagues - In theatre you discover that a successful production requires contributions from everybody who’s involved. Mutual respect is essential. Working on a production teaches us to respect and trust the abilities and talents of our colleagues. A prospective employer will appreciate the fact that you have learned the importance of respecting your co-workers.</p></li>
<li><p>Respect for Authority - Only one person can be in charge of any given portion of a production. The director. The shop foreman. The tech director. The designer. Theatre teaches you to willingly accept and respect authority. That’s a trait employers look for in their workers.</p></li>
<li><p>Adaptability and Flexibility - Theatre students must be adaptable and flexible. You need to be willing to try new ideas, accept new challenges, and have the ability to adapt to constantly changing situations and conditions. In one production you may be a member of the prop crew; in the next perhaps you’re in charge of makeup, publicity or the box office; in a third production you might have a leading role. A worker who is versatile and flexible is highly valued to most employers; both traits prove that you are able and willing to learn new things.</p></li>
<li><p>The Ability to Work Under Pressure - Theatre work often demands long hours. There’s pressure–often, as you know well, a lot of pressure. It’s important that everyone involved with a production be able to maintain a cooperative and enthusiastic attitude under pressure. The ability to remain poised under such tensions in an asset that will help you cope with stress in other parts of your life, including your job.</p></li>
<li><p>A Healthy Self-Image - To work in theatre, you must know who you are and how to project your individuality. But at the same time, it’s important to recognize the need to make yourself secondary to the importance of a production. This is a tricky balance that, although difficult to accomplish, is a valuable trait that employers treasure.</p></li>
<li><p>Acceptance of Disappointment–And Ability to Bounce Back - Theatre people learn to deal with dashed hopes and rejection on a regular basis. Who hasn’t failed to get a role he or she really wanted or a coveted spot on a tech crew? You learn to accept that kind of disappointment and move on. You try again. Employers need workers who are resilient enough to bounce back from this kind of frustration.</p></li>
<li><p>Self-Discipline - Theatre demands that you learn how to control your life. More than other students, you are forced to make choices between keeping up with responsibilities and doing things you’d rather do. You learn to govern yourself. An employer will respect that ability.</p></li>
<li><p>A Goal-Oriented Approach to Work - Many aspects of theatre involve setting and achieving specific goals. In employer’s terms, you’ve learned to be task-oriented and capable of finding practical ways to achieve goals. </p></li>
<li><p>Concentration - Busy theatre students, involved in a production or other theatre projects while also taking a heavy academic load, must learn to concentrate if they are to succeed. Acting classes in particular stress concentration, and once you have learned that skill as an actor, it can be transferred to other activities. </p></li>
<li><p>Dedication - As you work in theatre you learn to dedicate your very being–to doing your best to create a successful production. There is dedication to that show…to your home theatre…to theatre as an art. Many theatre students discover that committing oneself to a given task is deeply rewarding. Employers respect workers who have learned the value of dedication. </p></li>
<li><p>A Willingness to Accept Responsibility - Theatre students sometimes have an opportunity that is seldom given to students in other disciplines–the chance to take on sole responsibility for a special project. Being a production stage manager…a designer…a crew chief…a director. Students with other majors seldom have anything even close to these lessons. You can expect employers to value this unusual ability.</p></li>
<li><p>Leadership Skills - As a theatre student, you have many opportunities to assume leadership roles. You may, for example, assist a director or designer and lead other volunteers, serve as a crew chief, or even design or direct a production yourself. In the nuturing environment of theatre, faculty help you learn from mistakes so you become a better leader. Leadership training like this can open the possibility for comparable opportunities in a company that hires you. Can you think of any other major that offers this opportunity? </p></li>
<li><p>Self-Confidence - Theatre training teaches you confidence in yourself. Your accomplishments in theatre show you that you can handle a variety of jobs, pressures, difficulties and responsibilities. You develop a “Yes, I can!” attitude. Of course an employer will treasure that.</p></li>
<li><p>Enjoyment – “This is Fun!” - You’ve discovered already that theatre people mystify civilians when we say we’re having fun. Non-theatre folk shake their heads when we tell them that, and they ask how it is possible to have “fun” in a job that keeps us working night after night, sometimes until after midnight, doing something that calls for a grinding rehearsal or work schedule day after day after day, that makes us miss going to a movie or a concert. “That’s fun?” Yes. It is. We’ve learned how to find enjoyment in what we do. That’s a valuable attribute. We can adapt that to other jobs, find ways to enjoy other activities. That positive attitude will mean a great deal to any employer. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>AND MORE. MUCH, MUCH MORE</p>
<p>You get the idea. That list of 25 advantages is a start. No doubt you can add to it.</p>
<p>It seems almost incidental at this point to mention that theatre majors also learn about theatre. Most students who choose a theatre major do so because their training will prepare them for a career in the theatre, and it will. Theatre students learn to use their voices and bodies and minds and hearts to make magic on stage.</p>
<p>Clearly, though, they learn much, much more. Few people choose to set out on a difficult, demanding four-year course of theatre study because it will make them good candidates for employment in other fields.</p>
<p>But it will.</p>
<p>Far more than any other major, theatre is excellent training for virtually any job. The trick is for you to recognize the advantages you have. And to be sure you educate any prospective employer!</p>
<p>Make clear on your resume exactly what you have learned. Some employers may think that all an actor knows is just memorization and the ability to walk on stage without bumping into furniture, and tech people know only how to put up a flat. Tell them what else you’ve learned. Teach them!</p>
<p>Let them know that a theatre major has had far more excellent experience than any other major could have accumulated.</p>