If weather is a serious issue, the weather in Decorah Iowa home of Luther (January daytime high 25, annual snowfall 39 inches) is actually quite similar to Northfield MN (January daytime high 26, annual snowfall 42 inches).
As a hearty Minnesotan, it’s all about how you dress. There is a nice sledding hill that is frequently used by students at Olaf! I just drove through Decorah a couple weeks ago and that’s a really cute little town too. I wish we would have looked at Luther on that trip. They are amazing with the marketing. My kid got a handwritten post card from someone in the music department last week. I’ve heard they are GREAT with merit aid - know a few recent grads and current students.
ISU - are we talking about Iowa State or Illinois State (sorry if I missed that earlier in the thread)? Iowa State is somewhere we considered.
@MusakParent S just came home from school having met with both his band directors and flute teacher. They said don’t look at names for undergrad. Undergrad is about becoming employable and getting into a good graduate program so go for as little debt as possible. That doesn’t mean don’t go to a name school. Just don’t focus only on those schools. They also said that it’s good to keep the search wide in terms of college types because if you focus solely on a big flagship university, small LAC or geographic location you could miss something perfect for you. But, 1 Band director thinks his safety school is excellent. The 2nd thinks it’s excellent but the flute teacher sucks. His flute teacher says it sucks period because the educational classes have been dumbed down to the point of being worthless because they only care about retention. Point of reference… 1st band director did undergrad there and flute teacher taught there for six years.
Mixed bag on Illinois State University (haven’t looked at Iowa state). They all praise it. I’ve always been worried about dorms. (Converting common areas to quad rooms and demolishing a tower with over 800 residents to build suites for sophomores was making a tough situation worse IMHO).
I now have 18 colleges on my list. Unrealistic I know. But wide range fitting into many categories and geographic locations. But 5 are pre-screens just to see out of curiosity if he can get the invite. One will be removed if I can’t find more info on merit aid.
DS laughed when I read him the comment about hating yourself. He related completely.
My kids had a lot of ISU grads from K thru high school, probably close to 100 of them between the kids. Several of them made me shudder. Eek, the lack of subject knowledge and lack of knowledge of the education laws! Some did or said things that I would have been fired on the spot for when I was teaching. They have been tearing down dorms, two I believe last fall, and not replacing them, forcing kids into rental housing. Being in the towers for a fire drill is quite an experience. One of the largest landlords has a rental contract that violates Illinois rental laws. The same landlord files a lot of lawsuits. One thing I noticed was that at least 75% of the lawsuits are heard by one (of six) judges who just happens to have worked with the landlord’s daughter. That raises a red flag to me. If you’re going to look at a state school, U of Illinois is the way to go.
Tip for the college fair: labels. ISU hosts a college fair with well over 100 schools and only a couple of hours to get through them along with hundreds of students and parents. Labels made things a lot easier. Schools have an information postcard out that you just peel and stick the label on. They look at the information you placed on the card and start talking about your major, and scholarships. It makes your time spent in conversation instead of filling out cards all night. On the label put name, address, email address, phone (if you want a ton of calls), high school, GPA (weighted, unweighted and 4 or 5 pt scale), SAT/ACT score, intended major or area of interest, any honors received and activities. Amazing what you can fit on a label. lol I cut the labels in strips for easy handling. We powered through two college fairs in one night once.
Your kid is a high Stat kid. Illinois State University even on a full scholarship most likely will not be academically challenging enough for him. We know someone on a full one and transferred to University of Illinois the next semester. Just saying something to really check out. But yes like every teacher I know went there.
@GloriaVaughn thank you so much for the landlord info. Definitely raises a red flag. Funnily enough I just talked to my D former Econ teacher. S is taking AP so doesn’t have her. Mentioned all the AP courses he was taking. She had no idea what AP Calc BC or AP Physics C is, at a school she teaches at no less. And I LOVE the label idea. That is so helpful. I’ll have to see if I still have some or if I will have to run to the office supply store. I didn’t even bother with the cards at the three college fairs I took D to.
@Knowsstuff thank you for the insight. I know he LOVES the flute teacher at UofI. He worked with him over the summer at music camp. At least he attended camp, took a class, worked directly with flute instructor, lived in dorms and performed at Krannertz. One school I can just have him audition at. He really likes the flute teacher and music ed instructor of some sort from Elmhurst College but he says he just can’t see himself there. I suggested IWU but he hates the place. His best friend goes there. He’s gone there to hear her perform, seen where she lives, etc. I think it’s a great education for academic rigors but don’t know the music department. She’s a non-music major who continued to play in college.
I have been living on this forum compiling notes. I think it swallowed me whole. I now have 18 colleges on my list which I know is not doable. 5 are reach schools with pre-screens. Only one is a reach academically. I figure if he gets past pre-screen it’s worth traveling to. If he doesn’t then it’s a lesson in how to handle rejection. One is the local safety. One is ISU which will probably come off the list. One is UofI which is a given. That leaves ten to actually weed through. He was interested in one until he heard the required pre-screen piece (in addition to repertoire). It’s Mozart Concerto in C for flute, harp and orchestra. He said “I’m doing Mozart in G already for other schools. I’m not doing both.” I suggested swapping and he said no. That is the most vocal he has been about anything. He’s learned a new etude and a French Conservatory piece. His instructor doesn’t want him taking on more than one other to be a maximum of 4 total. Guess we will see what can fit into that. So now maybe only need to narrow the nine.
" I think it’s a great education for academic rigors but don’t know the music department." Academically, they’re not as special as they like to think. They’re not bad by any means, but when my mathphobic ODD got an A in math and said it was a repeat of high school math, that lowered my opinion of them. They also said that the kids couldn’t have jobs and make good grades. . . mine worked 4 part-time jobs and was making dean’s list. Her roommate (all four years) was a clarinet music ed. major. They do a few weird things there, like kids on overload schedules aren’t eligible for the honors societies, and pep band was mandatory. There’s no marching band there either. Some of the faculty also teach at the high schools. The department head is decent and his wife is motherly towards the kids. They have the kids over for dinner. There was an ugly incident while ODD was there, when a trombone performance major got mugged and beaten coming back from practicing. The poor guy had to crawl across campus before one of the kids found him, just about in front of my D’s window. He was a big guy and ended up with both hands broken.
I asked D, and she agrees that it’s not worth it to do another Mozart just for one school. If he’s got a German, a French, and an etude, she says do a modern piece for the 4th. Muczyinski or something modal or unaccompanied to show contrast. Also plan an early audition as a throwaway to work out any kinks before the ones he really cares about.
@universitymom2 my daughter was in a bfa program at iwu. She transferred to Beloit since iwu couldn’t support her major that she switched to. She had friends at isu. She is a junior. She was on the deans list her time at iwu. I hope I don’t insult anybody but this was her impression. At Iwu kids took the easiest possible classes to get an A to keep their grade point up. They actually talked about this a lot. Teachers didn’t go deep in thought to challenge kids. Now at Beloit she sees the difference. Kids seem to take classes to challenge themselves and she said the intellectual curiosity of the students and conversation is at a totally different level. She said the level of just the language that the teachers and students use is not comparable. The depth of thinking is not comparable. The depth of teaching is not comparable and everyone she meets is shocked that she transfered to Beloit from IWU. My daughter is so much Happier. She wants to be challenge harder.
I might be totally wrong on my next comment. My daughter was bfa in theater design. She went to Chicago Academy for the Arts high school and did musical theater for her track in high school. This is a private school that you have to audition to get into. Many suburban kids travel hours each way just to go there… It’s pre professional schools for dance, music, theater, film, writing, voice… The reason I bring this up is they did many auditions for many people for parts, having people from New York and Northwestern etc etc critique them. Many times they had to learn things like on the fly. They were pushed hard. The music department kids were fantastic but if they were asked /told to learn a piece in a difference signature, tone, etc they would be up all night and have it perfected by breakfast,before hoping on the Metra for their 1.5 each way journey to school. Probably playing on the train in… Lol…
Again, I might be out of my league here but if he doesn’t like to be challenged to take the time for this one school and feels stressed /burnt out (my words not yours) maybe higher competitive music schools are not his cup of tea.
I think very few HS students really know the intensity of being a music major until they are actually in a program and doing it. (Exception probably being a performing arts HS student). My D was putting in 9-12 hour days Freshman and Sophomore year. It’s a bit less this year, but not much. In my circle of friends (with non-music major kids), I hear they are putting in 5-6 hour days and some even have Fridays off. Nice.
I think finding the right balance between academic rigor and music program rigor is the key to happiness and success, but I think it is VERY difficult to determine going in. It is also highly personal / individual.
I think you cannot assume that a conservatory would be “too much” because it’s possible a conservatory could have less academic rigor / requirements compared to another school thus freeing up the time and energy of the student to put in the effort on the music end. I tend to think many people trying to stay away from conservatory are looking for the “full college experience”.
@UniversityMomOf2 I don’t know how you can find out the answer to this, but if the ultimate goal may be getting into grad school of choice, is it possible to find out where the kids of a particular college end up for grad school? (Kind of like I remember using Naviance to see where the kids in our HS were getting in to) Maybe that would help whittle away at your growing list…?
@Knowsstuff S and I had a conversation last night about IWU because I thought the academics were so good. He ended up saying that there are tons of athletes with poor grades who get in without having put in the work and they are “dumbing down the classes for the jocks”. This according to his friend who attends who had a 5.6 or so GPA who is quite annoyed by it. D’s best friend went to Chicago Academy of the Arts. She graduated this year. D said she was ALWAYS at dance. She is now a pharmacy major while auditioning for companies across the US. She relates to S having the scientific mind but heart of an artist. I don’t know that he’s stressed or burned out but his focus is split in so many directions right now. Last night when I mentioned the Mozart piece to him he was in the middle of finishing an AP Psych group project that got dumped on him for his partner to go to dance as though he didn’t have music to work on. He’s too nice to say and didn’t want her absence hurting his grade. I “think” he was just too frustrated to think about taking on more in that moment. Normally we have to reel him in for taking on too much, like telling him no sports this year. I just said I will make the list his flute teacher requested and they can go over it together to discuss what they think is doable for hm. He said ok. So I don’t know if it’s truly off the table or if he just wasn’t in the mood.
@GloriaVaughn that mugging story is case in point of why my dad said not to send my kids to school in Bloomington, where he lived until retirement. However, there are so many great schools deemed unsafe or in unsafe towns. But even on safe campuses bad things happen. But that’s a whole other discussion. I do appreciate your D making a music suggestion for contrast. I will bring it up with him and his teacher.
@dbandmom THAT is one of my top questions to ask when we visit. I honestly think he’s heading there in his mind since it keeps coming up. I’ve been looking at faculty to see what undergrad and grad programs they’ve gone through to get some ideas for undergrad but more current student information would be more telling. And what is up with Naviance? I haven’t been in it but both my kids hate it, say it never works and their school forces them to use it to have transcripts sent and request letters of recommendation. The school is having big problems with it this year and has been calling down seniors one by one to try to make sure their accounts are functioning. Friends have been calling me to tell me the issues their kids are having with it. D just got a letter from her College saying they never received her final high school transcripts that she requested through naviance be sent months ago. I had no idea you could see where other kids were getting into. I’d love to know how.
@UniversityMomOf2 Naviance (in 2016 when my D graduated) provided “scattergrams” for a college showing how many kids from our HS applied, what their stats were, and if they were accepted or rejected. It also plotted your kids stats on there.
If you google “naviance scattergram” you can see examples.
Now, in just a couple of years, there have been lots of changes to everything it seems! I have a younger child, but we are not to college app time yet. So, I have no idea if it still exists. I also do not know if every HS used / offered it.
Also, it’s an “academic” tool. Obviously, when you’re dealing with music auditions and such, it’s not a huge help. But it can somewhat help with list making and narrowing! And it was kind of fun!
Look for Music Education (BM) programs that guarantee that the classes will meet requirements to obtain their state’s credential immediately after graduating. These are typically 5-6 year programs. 90%+ of music schools do NOT offer this guarantee or help with actual job placement afterwards. OR do and are in small states with a tiny number of positions each year.
The best two for this that I know of are UCLA and Houston. They have a nearly 100% rate for job placement from their music ED programs. And it’s not a backup for them, either. You are a full performance major and an ED major as well in terms of what they require of you. Texas and California are also enormous markets for jobs afterwards as well. Getting a credential in Arizona or any smaller state is a path to a lot of struggle by comparison.
UCLA is stupid hard to get into, though. Houston is much easier academically, though both require you pass the exact same audition the performance majors do. I’d rate Houston as in the top 10 nationwide for undergrad music education programs. Texas has a state program where any scholarship of $1000 or more will waive the out of state surcharge, so it may shock you how affordable it is compared to other out of state choices. So also look at UT Austin and others as well.
Good luck to his best friend dancer. Randy Duncan the head of dance at CAA is amazing and a lot of his kids go on to amazing dance companies… As far as the intensity yes dance and musical theater was 6 days a week most weeks with long hours. But they are amazing so I guess the very hard work pays off…
Well when you start to narrow down would be interested in your list.
My daughter made appointments with her discipline head at every college to learn about their programs. The usual campus tour was OK but she needed to see the theater, costume shop and meet the instructors. She is also a great passionate interview. I would highly suggest this.
The only reason she ended up at IWU is that they were rank 2nd for her department the year she applied. She got accepted to her number 1 Emerson College in Boston for design but not enough merit. She knew ahead of time we had to be able to afford it since her brother was coming up 2 years later.
“Look for Music Education (BM) programs that guarantee that the classes will meet requirements to obtain their state’s credential immediately after graduating. These are typically 5-6 year programs.” Yes and no. It is important to make sure the school is properly accredited and on good terms with the state for licensure. In general though, schools are going to be fine except maybe conservatories that don’t otherwise have an ed. program. NCATE and NASM accreditation are preferred. I don’t know of any 6-year programs in IL. Do check how music ed. is structured as far as degree. Some schools do music ed. as a BA in music education, others do a BM in music ed. or ed. Which kind of degree affects which gen. eds are required. Which type of degree may also make a difference in requirements when you get to junior/senior recitals.
Licensing is different in every state. It’s easiest to go to school in the state where you plan to teach. If not, you need to be clear from the start that you plan to teach in state X so that hopefully someone will tell you anything extra you have to do. Some states use PRAXIS, some don’t. Some require edTPA, some don’t. The literacy requirements range wildly too. You don’t want to graduate and then find you have to fork over another couple grand on requirements before you can get licensed.
My S19 is looking at music ed
Programs and I’ve found it important to review placement rates. If the school is accredited and somewhat well known, you will see nearly 100 percent placement into teaching positions or grad school. As others mentioned, we’ve moved away from “name” schools and towards highly regarded programs that place grads we’ll. Good luck!
@GloriaVaughn Thanks for the label tip. Only used two because most schools were just scanning QR codes but a couple still had those postcards so I just slapped the labels on. At both schools they looked at it and pointed out that S qualified for their top academic scholarship.
@dbandmom At the tables I visited last night I specifically asked what grad schools kids from the music program were getting into. Some were able to answer and some weren’t but said they could get the info if I wanted but they didn’t want to quote me improperly without verifying the information. One school had it right in their music brochure along with a lot of other informative breakdowns.
@JOberlander I would love to send my kid to UCLA. Looked at it for D. S meets academics to apply but we can’t afford it. We are looking at UNT. Looked at other TX state colleges too but the in state tuition program for scholarships is not guaranteed. The TX legislature puts a limit on the number allowed and allows the schools to do it how they want it. From Texas A&M “Effective Fall 2017, undergraduate students must be awarded and maintain competitive scholarships of at least $4,000 per academic year in order to qualify for this waiver. All graduate students, all professional students, and current undergraduate students with existing eligible and continuing eligible competitive scholarship awards, may continue to receive this waiver at the previous $1,000 threshold. ” Many other TX colleges offer similar disclaimers. I had already looked at Austin and saw it wasn’t guaranteed. The Houston website is sort of a mess for navigation purposes. The school as a whole only mentions it for Tier One scholars. But I do like their degree track so it’s worth mentioning to S. Your recommendation as a whole is something I’ve been watching for quite specifically. At the college fair last night that was one of my top questions. I want him to have a BM and be licensed in 4 years. Some are BM, BMEd, and BA concentrating in Ed. I’m really not sure if BM vs BA is better. I know how they are different but can’t say which is better. Luther boasts really high stats but is a BA.
The first two tables I hit were Lawrence and DePauw. I don’t remember which of the two but was told ALL music majors get a minimum $3000 talent scholarship to stack with academic merit and it can go as high as 7. It was not published on their website that ALL get it. They pointed it out in some paperwork. Also said they try to get you to within a couple thousand of your EFC. Won’t need 100% of need but try to meet most. Depending on your EFC that can be fabulous news.
Have individual visits scheduled for St. Olaf, UWEC and Lawrence. Arranging for private lessons. Will be hitting Millikin and Valpo soon and maybe DePauw. (Anyplace I can drive to on a Saturday morning). I REALLY need to start chipping away at this list. HELP??
While I don’t have specific experience with music ed programs. I did have a child who waffled between going to college of academics or music. It can be tough. Someone mentioned looking in the south. On that note, I wanted to share that I’ve seen many comments about how popular the U of South Carolina for OOS students and that they have huge incentives for OOS students (possibly offering in state tuition for OOS students). USC does have a music ed program and I would think would also have strong science programs. Others to consider may be FSU, UGA. I’ve also seen several HS music teachers with masters from LSU and the network among the LSU grads seems to be strong.
Be careful judging a school by the people at the college fair table. Some are great at this and some are not. We got turned off at the original school my daughter ended up going to by their college fair person. I mean, we all have our good /bad days right… Same goes with any college visits… Some great schools have not so great people doing the tours.
Meeting with the faculty was a lot more useful for our kids. My daughter made appointments with the heads of the departments and brought her portfolio with. These were not “official” interviews but she basically created that for herself. They reviewed her portfolio with her whether they wanted to or not. She was accepted at 11/12 schools. Not sure about music if you have to have an official appointment or not because scheduling I know can be tough. Maybe carrying the flute case in a back pack and having an interview then say… By the way, I just happen to have my flute with me
“Not sure about music if you have to have an official appointment or not because scheduling I know can be tough. Maybe carrying the flute case in a back pack and having an interview then say… By the way, I just happen to have my flute with me” Don’t do that. That would result in PO’d faculty. For those of you who don’t know how this works, schools have audition days for a reason. You audition for a panel of people and generally need an accompanist. That means you’d either have to bring your accompanist with you or be hoping there’s someone at the school who can do it, in which case you’ve just thoroughly annoyed that person. Don’t do that. If you’re going to do anything, ask to sit in on a rehearsal because that isn’t a massive inconvenience.
There is a nice sledding hill that is frequently used by students at Olaf! I just drove through Decorah a couple weeks ago and that’s a really cute little town too. I wish we would have looked at Luther on that trip. They are amazing with the marketing. My kid got a handwritten post card from someone in the music department last week. I’ve heard they are GREAT with merit aid - know a few recent grads and current students.