Very "peaceful" tibetan "protest" in China

College Confidential Community
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<p>“Haha. I should have known you were a freeper… it’s pretty obvious from your ridiculous posts in the homosexuality thread. And I advise people to stay away from freerepublic.com. It’s a vicious site filled with hate against everyone from blacks to jews to muslims to Chinse to gays to…on and on and on…to the ultimate evil, liberals.”</p>

<p>Evidenty you are very judgemental. Before you even tastes the fruits, you already know the taste? Even you don’t like it, it doesn’t necessarily other people don’t like it. If you don’t care about what happen to people in other countries, I don’t see your point in saying anything.</p>

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<p>“Haha. I should have known you were a freeper… it’s pretty obvious from your ridiculous posts in the homosexuality thread. And I advise people to stay away from freerepublic.com. It’s a vicious site filled with hate against everyone from blacks to jews to muslims to Chinse to gays to…on and on and on…to the ultimate evil, liberals.”</p>

<p>Evidenty you are very judgemental. Before you even taste the fruits, you already know the taste? Even you don’t like it, it doesn’t necessarily mean other people don’t like it. If you don’t care about what happen to people in other countries, I don’t see your point in saying anything.</p>

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I am a frequent visitor. This is first-hand knowledge. It’s also third-hand in that it’s been reported by numerous media sources.</p>

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<p>“I am a Permanent Resident of the United States, and I am also a Canadian Citizen. I immigrated to Canada along with my parents when I was 8 years old.” </p>

<p>So I see you are enjoying what the US Constition grants to Americans because you live here in US. If you think China is so great and you love it, why don’t you go back to China and live there since you don’t really appreciate what America can offer, evidently you don’t know why it’s so great here (people fought and bled for it and are still doing it), and you don’t even help the cause: Free China?</p>

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<p>“I am a frequent visitor. This is first-hand knowledge. It’s also third-hand in that it’s been reported by numerous media sources.”</p>

<p>What’s your user name there? It would be a honor to discuss with you about politics there.</p>

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<p>jasmincn, we can’t really have a genuine dialogue with you here because clearly you are very much disconnected from the ground realities in China. Everything you say is from an American point of view, disregarding what people really worry about in China. Do you really care to find out what an ordinary citizen on the streets of Beijing, Xi’an, or Wuhan worry about the most at the moment? Here are a few things that need urgent attention:</p>

<ol>
<li>Soaring inflation, food prices</li>
<li>Social security and old age pension funds</li>
<li>Universal health care</li>
<li>Eliminating tuition fees in public schools </li>
<li>Stock market bubble</li>
<li>Pollution, water safety, environmental hazards </li>
<li>Local official corruption and bribery</li>
<li>Land reform laws and illegal land seizures</li>
</ol>

<p>…and a whole range of other socio-economic issues.</p>

<p>Seriously, ordinary people already have enough to worry about, not to mention a daily struggle to keep their families fed in a full-scale capitalist economy. After all, “freedom, democracy, and unalienable rights” can’t really substitute a hot meal and a nice income for the average joe on the street.</p>

<p>C’mon, “Free China,” show me how you can make a nice bowl of zhajiang noodle out of it first.</p>

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I don’t believe I have an account there.</p>

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<p>And by the way, my priority here in America is not to enjoy her “unalienable rights” or “democracy.” My job here is to study at a world-class, private institution in Baltimore, Maryland that has nothing to do with the American state. I’m also here to gain knowledge and witness the many achievements America has made over the past 200 years. Its democratic institutions, judicial checks and balances, and a comfortable degree of freedom of speech are admirable achievements worth commending. And of course, I also want to see a strong, free, and democratic China one day, when the suitable time arrives.</p>

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<p>“I’m also here to gain knowledge and witness the many achievements America has made over the past 200 years. Its democratic institutions, judicial checks and balances, and a comfortable degree of freedom of speech are admirable achievements worth commending. And of course, I also want to see a strong, free, and democratic China one day, when the suitable time arrives.”</p>

<p>Very nice!</p>

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<p>The Tiananmen Square protest in 1989 failed not because of its message or cause. In theory, what the students were demanding are perfectly legitimate. However, there is a large gap between theory and reality. What went wrong with Tiananment was the timing of the event. 1980s China was a very different country from what it is right now. At the time, half the country was still hanging on the poverty line. The 800 million peasantry had no knowledge or regard for whatever political reform taking place. All they wanted was a piece of land, a peaceful state of things, and a good price to sell their wheat. At the current moment, China is trying to build a solid economic basis, in order lay the ground work for a smooth political transition in the future. If the Tiananmen protests were to take place 15 years from now, it will most likely yield more promising results and higher support.</p>

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<p>"Do you really care to find out what an ordinary citizen on the streets of Beijing, Xi’an, or Wuhan worry about the most at the moment? Here are a few things that need urgent attention:</p>

<ol>
<li>Soaring inflation, food prices</li>
<li>Social security and old age pension funds</li>
<li>Universal health care</li>
<li>Eliminating tuition fees in public schools </li>
<li>Stock market bubble</li>
<li>Pollution, water safety, environmental hazards </li>
<li>Local official corruption and bribery</li>
<li>Land reform laws and illegal land seizures</li>
</ol>

<p>…and a whole range of other socio-economic issues.</p>

<p>Seriously, ordinary people already have enough to worry about, not to mention a daily struggle to keep their families fed in a full-scale capitalist economy. After all, “freedom, democracy, and unalienable rights” can’t really substitute a hot meal and a nice income for the average joe on the street.</p>

<p>C’mon, “Free China,” show me how you can make a nice bowl of zhajiang noodle out of it first"</p>

<p>Ha, very good. Now we are getting to the point. I will get back to you very soon about all this.</p>

<p>I do want to let you know first that Americans want China to be free. Rich China but not free is a threat to the free world. Americans don’t have any problems with countries that are rich, such as Japan and South Korean, etc because they are part of the free world. </p>

<p>No mattter what country you live in, there are people who are rich and poor and everybody works to support herself/himself and her/his family. Americans work much more than a lot of other countries in this world, including China. We have less vacation than China and European countries. We have people who are on welfare, need food, and clothes. (BTW I have to remember to put out two bags of charity stuff for an organization for some kind of terminal disease - can’t remember). The key difference is we have freedom and liberty here to speak freely and bear arms, etc. We don’t like governmental infringement. Yes, we have our own problems, we have to pay bills and a lot of them, our house value is going down, we are worrying very much. But I can send a message to my congressman, my governor, and my president to complain about certain things and express my concern about any national issues… I can go on forever on this list.</p>

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<p>“I don’t believe I have an account there.” </p>

<p>Then it means you haven’t tastes the fruits yet. At least you have to interact and find out why other people think differently if you think you are absolutely right.</p>

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<p>I support your views on a “free China.” However, China is an ancient civilization with over 5000 years of civilized history. Deep cultural customs and traditions have taken root there. While I support the establishment of a democratic system, an independent judicial system, and a guarantee of basic civil rights in China, I also want to see a more pragmatic approach on the actual implementations of these institutions in China. It is irresponsible and unreasonable to simply copy-paste the western democratic system on China without any modifications. One must also realize that different cultures and peoples have very different interpretations of the word “freedom.” To me, a democracy is not a simple act of franchise. That is what we see on the surface, the usual pompous elections and lavish campaign speeches. To me, a democracy must serve the the IMMEDIATE NEEDS of the nation and its people in any given time period. At the current moment, for China, those needs are quite simple: fill every citizen’s bellies, increase average income, increase domestic consumption, polishing social security, and increasing the overall living standards of every citizen as fast as possible. In China, most people would rather have a wealthy, comfortable life than the latter option. In fact, Chinese history has shown that a powerful “central government” is always needed in order to ensure the stability and growth of this giant, multi-cultural, multi-ethnic nation. </p>

<p>Just for future reference, somethings are just inherently different between America and China, because of deep differences in peoples’ cultural values. In China, most people (in fact, everyone I’ve met) don’t really have much of a problem with “censorship” or “freedom of speech.” I can tell you with confidence that people in China can talk about politics freely. They can also send suggestions and criticisms to their local government. My cousins there discuss about politics and political reforms all the time, sometimes even throwing a joke or two about their local communist party commissars. Political and social satires are popular on Chinese media. I once saw this short skit on an entertainment channel showing a few guys who are dressed like clowns, apparently immitating the rigid looks of Party officials.</p>

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<p>If you would like to learn more about China, Jasmincn, don’t be stuck all the time before a computer screen hearing what other people say. Come to China, see it with your own raw eyes the ground reality, the transformation, and the future challenges. Chinese people welcomes all guests with gracious hospitality.</p>

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<p>Okay, I understand your thinking now. This is how the mind of the average Chinese citizen works.</p>

<p>Why does life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness have to “subsitute” “a hot meal and a nice income?” How does having one undermine the other? Why the **** do you have to sacrifice freedom to get food?</p>

<p>When people are free, they are free to work for a hot meal, they are free to pursue a nice income. Instead, in a Communist country, these things are meagerly assigned by the government.</p>

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<p>Sorry for acting like an average Chinese citizen, butterbattle. We know that we don’t possess the upright moral elevation that you have. We simply don’t have the time or luxury at the present moment to engage in idealistic crusades on democracy or freedom. Unlike the relative stability and peace America has enjoyed, China has had too much turmoil and unrest and periods of chaos and humiliation in the past two centuries. In World War II alone, over 20 million Chinese civilians were killed in the fight against Japanese invasion. Another 2.5 million perished during the civil war between 1945 and 1949. During the 1970s, disastrous campaigns and purges such as the “Great Leap Forward” and the Cultural Revolution claimed millions of more lives, mostly from poverty, famine, and starvation. Currently, we simply cannot afford another risky experiment that would jeoprodize the economic well-being and social stability of our citizens. Just like how Europeans emerged from the ashes of World War II eager for peace and stability, China is in a similar situation right now. </p>

<p>What Americans want to see happening in China makes perfect sense. Why shouldn’t every human being enjoy universal human rights, right of expression, and the right to fully participate in civil and political arenas? However, when we look at what “freedom” has done to other parts of the world, many us would rather prefer to post-pone till a later date. After the establishment of a democratic government in Iraq, unemployment there has rocketed to over 60%. After the swift dismantling of the former USSR, many people formerly depedent on government welfare are now jobless and homeless. Nowadays, it is a common sight to see senior citizens on the icy streets of St. Petersberg selling vintage possessions, nearly on the verge of begging for a living. India, often acclaimed us the largest democracy in the world, has also one of the lowest literacy rate in the world, with less than 61% of its vast population able to read and write. Nearly a third of India’s population is currently still below the international poverty line. If you ask the average Indian peasant, he’d rather spend his time buying an extra cow, some pigs, a TV, and growing some more rice for his family than participate in a democratic debate. Indeed, democracy and freedom looks great in theory. The reality, unfortunately, is quite a different story in the developing countries around the world. </p>

<p>What I would like to convey is that it is often easy and tempting to judge and tell what other people should and should not do. Because America is already in a state of highly advanced political and economic stability, most people here don’t really have a solid grasp of many of the hardships and immediate needs of people on the other side of the globe. Many Americans may want to see an immediate establishment of democracy in China (a "free China). Most Chinese, on the other hand, may have something else in mind.</p>

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<p>“When people are free, they are free to work for a hot meal, they are free to pursue a nice income. Instead, in a Communist country, these things are meagerly assigned by the government.”</p>

<p>-In fact, it’s quite the opposite in China nowadays. Food assignments and “ration notes” are vintages of the 1970s. On the other hand, I would say that today’s China is economically and socially more capitalist than many Western developed nations (our health care system is currently completely privatized; we have almost no social security or any other kind of welfare programs; the government’s official message to everyone is to “get rich”; attending highschool and university in China costs a fortune- I remember having to pay hundreds of yuan a semester to just purchase my grade 1 text books; In fact I actually wonder what it really feels like to live in a communist, socialist society, as today’s China is completely business laissez-faire).</p>

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<p>jiim@killarney, your post was insightful. It helps to have a different viewpoint on this thread. Democracy does not work for all countries. All nations are different and democracy cannot act as a blanket solution for all of society’s problems.</p>

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<p>Here’s a few clips from CNN and BBC on China, and according to general consent, I would not call this the typical “communist society.” They are a glimpse of a double-digit 10% growht rate has translated into in China’s past 3 decades:</p>

<p>[Video</a> - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com](<a href=“http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/04/21/ey.big.auto.mkt.cnn]Video”>http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/04/21/ey.big.auto.mkt.cnn)</p>

<p>In fact, communism has faded so rapidly in China in the past 30 years that the government even made an effort to “preserve” one of its communes as the “Communist hall of fame,” even though the goal of this enterprise is to create some extra cash out of tourism:</p>

<p>[YouTube</a> - Paul Merton in China Communist Living Areas](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDbmlKjdAXE&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDbmlKjdAXE&feature=related)</p>

<p>Money speaks louder:
[YouTube</a> - Paul Merton in China Episode 4 pt 2](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrS2DYpCRPE&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrS2DYpCRPE&feature=related)</p>

<p>[YouTube</a> - Paul Merton in China ep4 Pt1](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4fLmireJQA&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4fLmireJQA&feature=related)</p>

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<p>Especially those where the dictators don’t want it to. :rolleyes:</p>