<h1>99 - archiemom: Between them my kids have attended five schools and all of them have been the subject of critical CC threads. :)</h1>
<p>Villanova is an excellent school. A recent graduate I know is in a PhD program at a top graduate school, and as many of us know getting into a PhD program these days is almost as rare as hen’s teeth. You see this as an isolated incident? I don’t. When a university President cancels an invited speaker due to outside pressure, that is a really big deal. What if outside pressures decide they don’t care for queer studies, womens studies, studies of other cultures and all the rest of that pc nonsense? Will those courses be canceled, too? I am happy with religious schools teaching whatever they choose, however they choose but at that point Villanova is a very different school than it is now.</p>
<p>A lot of people, who object to teaching all that pc nonsense don’t want to send their kids to religious schools. They want to send them to prestigious secular schools (founded as seminaries) which are known to be bastions of the pc. They would be delighted to change those schools back to a curriculum of dead white males taught by living straight white males. Why is this a problem? Because some of us (you and me, for example) have children and potential grandchildren who don’t conform to that norm and this has the potential to further marginalize them. And because sometimes what happens in the university is a microcosm of what is going on in society at large.</p>
<p>And this is why I see gay rights and academic freedom as rather inextricably intertwined.</p>
<p>For any Scriptures-believing folks (OT or NT) who think that a small number of Catholic men’s horrendous behavior discredits the whole faith…I’d like to remind them: While there are a few naughty girls in the Holy Scriptures, there’s a whole bunch of guys behaving badly. …tales as old as time. Humans have long been and will always be sinners. It’s the reason for the need for Redemption.</p>
<p>“When something like this happens – when a mainstream Catholic university does something that I don’t think its secular counterparts would do – I think it is interesting, and worth discussing.”</p>
<p>What I find interesting is the notion that what a Catholic university’s “secular counterparts would do” should be the template for what a Catholic university should do. A Catholic university is, or should be, founded on the absolute truth that is Jesus Christ. A secular university, by its very nature, is founded on something else – a search for some kind of truth, with the caveat that there can be no absolute truth and so all truths are equally valid until proven otherwise. Or something like that. </p>
<p>For probably a whole host of reasons, Villanova has decided that a person whose public performances are consistently described as explicitly graphic and sexual and centered on homosexual activities regarded by the Church as intrinsically disordered, and who is a proud member of an organization that has shown extreme disrespect for Catholic Church teachings and liturgies, is not a suitable choice to lead a student workshop at a Catholic university. Other universities, some of which are ostensibly Catholic, have decided otherwise. </p>
<p>It’s hard to see why this particular decision is a matter of such intense interest on the part of folks who, for the most part, don’t really have a dog in this fight.</p>
<p>“I am sure the state of Colorado can do a much better, much more even handed and cost effective job with all these services than the RCC ever could.”</p>
<p>If that were the case, then Catholic Charities would never have gotten the contract to begin with. Governments outsource to faith-based groups because those groups generally deliver services in a more cost-effective manner than do government agencies.</p>
<p>“While there are a few naughty girls in the Holy Scriptures, there’s a whole bunch of guys behaving badly. …tales as old as time. Humans have long been and will always be sinners. It’s the reason for the need for Redemption.”</p>
<p>Exactly. Jesus chose 12 apostles – one betrayed him, one denied him, and the rest abandoned him. The moral authority of the Catholic Church comes from Christ, not from the sinful men on whom he chose to build his Church. It’s natural to point to the sins and shortcomings of Church leaders as grounds for disregarding Church teachings, but that has been going on for centuries, and the Church still stands.</p>
Nobody is saying that the behavior discredits the faith. It discredits the institution. In my view, at least, those aren’t the same thing. We weren’t discussing whether the doctrines of Catholicism are true or not–we were discussing the actions of a college administrator.</p>
<p>I should have added the appropriate sarcasm ‘smilie’ but keep forgetting the VM code. It WAS meant to be said with sarcasm.</p>
<p>And, although IRL you and I would probably clash on many points related to the RCC - in fact you probably put me into the punch card/cafeteria variety - I have found your thoughtful, respectful and faith based posts to be very informative and needed in a forum such as this. As the nuns would say - keep up the good work!</p>
I think it’s their prerogative to do what they want, however, if they want kids of other faiths (or no faith at all) to attend - and many - like Georgetown - have always been open to students of all faiths, then they need to be clear which parts of the Catholic mission (all or some of it) they plan to uphold. </p>
<p>My younger son, a committed atheist, applied to Georgetown, but it was just this sort of thing that worried him. The tour and info session emphasized that they were open to everyone, (look the offices of the priest, imam, and rabbi are side by side!), and not that contraception might not be available or that edgy artists might not be welcome.</p>
<p>think it’s their prerogative to do what they want, however, if they want kids of other faiths (or no faith at all) to attend - and many - like Georgetown - have always been open to students of all faiths, then they need to be clear which parts of the Catholic mission (all or some of it) they plan to uphold</p>
<p>=======</p>
<p>Sorry, but that’s just too funny.</p>
<p>Being open to those of other faiths (or no faith at all) doesn’t mean that Catholic univs are supposed to “pick and choose” which parts of the Catholic faith they will uphold. These schools are supposed to uphold all parts…otherwise risk losing their ability to call themselves “Catholic”…which they’re free to do as well. </p>
<p>Those who attend Catholic schools need to understand that they can be who they are (Prot, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, gay or straight, lib or conserv), but the schools will still be Catholic.</p>
<p>The Vatican is welcoming to all, and people of all faiths visit, but it’s not “picking and choosing” anytime soon.</p>
<p>I’m trying to grab onto something solid to take away from this thread, and from several other recent threads. The bedrock of the Catholic faith is covered by slippery Catholic institutional eels and octopi. It is hard to get a firm grasp on just, exactly, one can expect from one Catholic institution to another. And I think that is where all of the questions on these threads are coming from. We’d be glad to attend or not attend Catholic institutions, if only there was consistency from one institution to another, and from one year to another, to help us make informed decisions.</p>
<p>Oh I understand that the schools should be Catholic if they say they are Catholic, I’m just saying that some of them are de-emphasizing that aspect. And as a non-Catholic, I sure don’t know the fine details of what will or will not therefore be allowed. They certainly aren’t stopping pre-marital sex on campus or underage drinking.</p>
<p>To those worried about which part of what dogma may or may not be enforced…figure out if enforcement of ANY portion is a deal breaker for you. Assume that this enforcement may happen at sometime during off springs stay. Then decided it is not for you. Problem solved.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, this applies to just about any and all organizations. One just has to learn to live with it, or avoid it.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I consider it my responsibility to inform myself of the ins and outs of my kids possible choices. For example, one particular institution on son’s list has a reputation for not being to friendly toward opposing views which represent a right of center ideology. It’s not what is stated in the glossy mailings or the web page, but with a bit of research it becomes clear. Now, if DS decides to go there he will just have to suck up the fact that he may be consider the root of all evil by some. Frankly, it would rather two year old toddlerish tantrum behavior to attend this institution and then complain about the violation of his civil rights.</p>
<p>At some point we need to realize the LIFE IS UNFAIR - deal!</p>
<p>My Quote:
For any Scriptures-believing folks (OT or NT) who think that a small number of Catholic men’s horrendous behavior discredits the whole faith</p>
<p>========</p>
<h1>Hunt Quote: Nobody is saying that the behavior discredits the faith. It discredits the institution. In my view, at least, those aren’t the same thing. We weren’t discussing whether the doctrines of Catholicism are true or not–we were discussing the actions of a college administrator.</h1>
<p>Hunt…you need to be more clear. What has Villanova done in the past to discredit itself as an institution? Nothing. And since it has done nothing wrong, and the president doesn’t have a history of wrong-doing, then how has Nova or its President lost its moral authority to do what it thinks is right?</p>
<p>If you’re saying that the bad behavior of some Catholic men discredit the entire Catholic Church as an instiution, then you’re horribly wrong. The Church is and always will be stronger than sin…always.</p>
<p>And the faith and the RCC as an institution are the same.</p>
<p>A lot of “Catholic” schools are indeed de-emphasizing their Catholic identity. Georgetown is one of them, though a lot of folks haven’t gotten the memo, because many of the trappings of a Catholic university are still in place. But when there are only a handful of people at the daily Mass in the lovely campus chapel, that’s a huge clue. The decision to name a lay President was another, even though the dearth of younger Jesuits essentially left the school with no other choice. And the declining percentage of Catholic undergraduates is, perhaps, the most telling statistic of all. Last month, Patrick Deneen, a prominent government professor at GU, posted an provocative piece entitled “Why I am Leaving Georgetown” in which he described that university’s lack of interest in maintaining a Catholic identity. Unfortunately, it seems to have vanished from cyberspace, or I would have posted the link. </p>
<p>As to “enforcing” rules against premarital sex and alcohol consumption – well, the Church can’t “enforce” those rules with the folks in the pews, so it’s hardly surprising that students living in dorms have managed to get away with violating them. For that matter, those in charge of students at the service academies seem to have similar difficulties keeping their flocks in line.</p>
<p>Once the Church knew it was true that the earth was the center of the universe. And once the Church knew slavery was justified. In the future the Church may have different truths than it has at present. I don’t believe pointing this out is a criticism or challenge of anyone’s faith.</p>
<p>You’re not talking about Doctrines. The Church has never and will never change its Doctrines…ever. </p>
<p>And…heck…lol…maybe the earth is the center of the universe…do you know where the center is? (I hope you realize that’s a joke) Anyway…that was never taught as doctrine. </p>
<p>I know that kind of stuff confuses people. The Church has Doctrines…these have existed since the death of the last apostle. No new ones or discarded ones. The same ones…final.</p>
<p>You need to distinguish between the actual teachings of the Church (those can be found in the Catechism of the Church, available online) and statements made by individual Catholics. If you are investigating, then do it right. :)</p>
<p>-- Bryn Mawr has picked up the workshop for the week previously booked by Villanova, and invited all of the Villanova students who had signed up to participate at Bryn Mawr. (The two campuses are about 1.5 miles apart.)</p>
<p>-- Miller says his public performances have never included simulated sex, and that he stopped using nudity nine years ago.</p>
<p>-- Miller and Bryn Mawr confirmed that the workshop in question does not involve performance by Miller.</p>
<p>-- Students at Villanova are asking for a chance to meet with Rev. Donohue to understand why the workshop was canceled. </p>
<p>-- One gay student leader at Villanova, who is calling for the meeting, said he is certain that the workshop was not canceled just because Miller is gay, and that he (the student) has never felt that Villanova discriminated against him because he is openly gay. He pointed out that a gay ex-basketball player alumnus is speaking on campus next week about being a gay athlete.</p>
<p>Edited to add: Claremarie is certainly right to object to potshots like the one involving the “Scripture Catholics” (which is kind of a bizarre concept). But that Newman Society list confirms that when she talks about real Catholic universities, she doesn’t mean many of the Catholic universities people on CC pay attention to.</p>