<p>Agreed...GCs do not necessarily know who is accepted but they DO know who is applying. The question is (and I don't know)...can a student submit two SCEA applications online...and get whatever they need from the GC...without the GC knowing that the two aps were SCEA? It seems possible to me if the GC has nothing to sign.</p>
<p>^^Yes, thumper, that is the big question. When a GC sends in a transcript/SSR to an SCEA school, does he/she have to specify that the stuff being sent is for an SCEA app? Otherwise, the student could pull one over on the GC in the way you suggest. Sybbie, do you know the answer to this question?</p>
<p>Do students sign a SCEA form, as they do for ED? Both my kids applied ED, and in each case the ED form had to be signed by the student, parents and the guidance counselor.</p>
<p>I thought that when a student applied SCEA, he/she had to sign a form which was also signed by the guidance counselor (and possibly the parents . . . can't remember). The form states the SCEA rules very clearly. It's possible that some guidance counselors do not read the forms, even though they sign them--they are often quite busy.</p>
<p>It would be great if the claims of multiple SCEA admissions or SCEA/EA admissions were investigated, and it turned out that the claims were bogus--in fact, students did not have multiple, restrictive admissions. In my opinion, if those claims weren't bogus, it would be right for both admissions to be rescinded (or all n admissions, if n > 2). </p>
<p>I don't really feel that the deck is stacked against the students in SCEA or EA, though ED is a little different. And I don't see any justification for a student's signing an agreement that he/she doesn't intend to keep, even if the deck were stacked.</p>
<p>Eventually, we do know who has been accepted because the College does send a letter with the information to the school as to what students from your school applied and the outcome (acceptance, denial, waitlist, incomplete application). </p>
<p>I don't know how other GCs do this but, I need a little organization in my life.</p>
<p>I have all of my students in spread sheets where I can sort and date multiple reports (I am in the process of having an access database built). I know what recommendations I have written, who has returned brag sheets, who has submitted stuff, when it was submitted, and when I mailed stuff to the school (transcripts, fee waivers). If one of my kids file early (ED, SCEA) other than rolling admissions, I do not even send out any additional information until the results are back I also inform the parents of the process.</p>
<p>I know who has submitted a common app : I request a paper copy of the print out before I send out anything. So if there is a problem, I can scan the file in as a pdf, and e-mail it to the school. </p>
<p>I have the kids also print out a copy of the SUNY and CUNY applications</p>
<p>I send out all of the transcritps to the school, so yes a student must tell me where the information is being mailed to (I used to do the self managed -give the kids an envelope and let them mail. Now they just supply stamps. The there are 2 post offices with in 2 blocks of my school so I drop everything off at the PO my self)</p>
<p>In the Yale supplement on the common app, there is a signature line where the student must sign if they are applying SCEA. They do not require the parent or GC signature.</p>
<p>So the GC and parents must sign off if a student applies ED, but neither parent nor GC signature is needed for an SCEA application. The colleges should plug that hole. As it now stands, if a kid decides to apply to two colleges in violation of an SCEA agreement (or two of them, if it's Y and S he's aiming for), he can do it with no problem IF he can get the GC to send out both transcripts and SSRs before the EA deadline. It wouldn't work with Sybbie, because she waits till a kid gets an SCEA application result before sending out additional transcripts and SSRs for that student. But if a counselor is not savvy and well-organized, all a student has to do is persuade him/her to get those materials out before November 1 and voila, the groundwork is laid for filing two applications in violation of the SCEA rules.</p>
<p>I only know about Stanford SCEA back in the days of the paper apps to Stanford--and my memory is hazy at that--but I did think Stanford required the GC signature for SCEA, in addition to the student's.</p>
<p>At our school, all supporting documents are sent out within two weeks of the request. SO...if a student made a request for documents to Yale and Stanford, it would go to the registrar (not the GC) who would send the transcript and letters of recommendation. The only thing that wouldn't go from there would be the GC statement if that is required.</p>
<p>So...at my kids' school it would be very easy to apply to two SCEA or ED or EA schools because the stuff is just sent. </p>
<p>Now for ED, I believe there IS a required signature. Our GCs do NOT encourage ED applications.</p>
<p>My S applied SCEA to Stanford last year. The statement that he signed said, among other things, ". . . I have discussed my intent to apply to Stanford under the Restrictive Early Action program with both my parent/guardian(s) and my high school counselor. They support me in my decision." So a kid would have to be lying in a bunch of different ways to apply early in several places. I don't think the GC had to sign about anything to do with SCEA.</p>
<p>My S's school has very few students applying to top schools, and has never had a student go to an Ivy. I think this makes the GC more aware of what is going on, since these applications stick out. If a student is trying to do 2 restrictive early apps (Nov 1 deadline) and is pushing the GC to send the reports and transcripts super early, that can be a red flag to the GC, even if there is no indication on the forms. At his old HS the GC filled out the form and then forwarded it to the registrar to add the transcript and send the package. I am pretty sure the GC form last year indicated that my S's was an SCEA application.</p>
<p>I just took a look at the Common App website. Yale's Common App Supp requires the SCEA candidate to agree to, date, and sign the following statement: “I wish to be considered under Yale’s Restrictive Early Action program. I have read and understood the terms of the program on page 1 of the Application Instructions and agree to comply with them.” No parent’s or GC’s signature is required.</p>
<p>
[quote]
On the other hand, you have the applicants who game the system, skirting--even egregiously breaking--the "rules" and thinking that it's okay to do so. I don't know which faction is within their rights to do so.
[/quote]
I don't care how stacked the system is in favor of the schools - violation of the submission terms is unambiguously wrong as a matter of fairness (to other applicants - or is this not a consideration?) and personal responsibility (the applicant is by definition lying about the submission). That a senior CC counselor considers this tactic as possibly within a student's "rights" is troubling.</p>
<p>"That a senior CC counselor considers this tactic as possibly within a student's 'rights' is troubling."</p>
<p>You got that right.</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying Thumper Post #16. I was afraid a lot of kids who got their stuff in on EA would be freaking out right before the holidays.</p>
<p>It occurs to me that the "Stanford" SCEA form I mentioned might actually have been a local, high-school-generated form, to help the GC's keep track of SCEA applications, and to make sure that the students understood what they were signing--especially if no one else recalls such a form.</p>
<p>Agree with posts #31 and #32.</p>
<p>Morally, it is a big problem to accept terms and then ignore them. It is dishonest. I can't imagine any counselor going along with this. However, the process is such that it can be done without the counselor being complicit. It is easier and more efficient for the counselors and the recommenders and the high school to send all of the paperwork out at the same time. My son had 5 EA and one rolling app this year, and so we just had all the school transcripts, recommendations, test scores sent out at one time. He was then done with that part of the process. In his case, he got most all of his apps out early as well since there was the common app and the state app which covered multiple schools. The only things that went out later were the RD supplements, and one app that had a two tiered process. It would have been very possible to have had some SCEA or ED schools in the mix.</p>
<p>In past years, the mistakes have been "ooopses". One of my son's friends applied to GT and an ED school. Some schools are not clear with their rules. It is in the small print, and, yes, though the kids should have read it, it is easy to overlook. At one time, I believe there were ED schools that did not want EA apps. With ED2, interim admissions and other kooky programs with their rules, an inadvertent mistake is certainly possible. However, there are those who deliberately disregard the rules and do what they please. They are taking the risk of getting caught and losing their admissions acceptances. The chances of getting caught have not been so big, downright small at some high schools where the counselors are not hands on at all. This may not be the case in the future.</p>
<p>Some counselors and schools are in a consortium where they agree to be on the lookout and watch for these things. They also refuse to support multiple acceptances even for schools that don't care if a student accepts more than their school. It seems to me that most counselors take the don't ask, don't tell stance.</p>
<p>QuantMech, Stanford used to have such a form (at least 5 yrs ago they did). It was not local - it was required by Stanford.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At our school, all supporting documents are sent out within two weeks of the request. SO...if a student made a request for documents to Yale and Stanford, it would go to the registrar (not the GC) who would send the transcript and letters of recommendation. The only thing that wouldn't go from there would be the GC statement if that is required.</p>
<p>So...at my kids' school it would be very easy to apply to two SCEA or ED or EA schools because the stuff is just sent.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is the way it works at our school, as well. In fact, my D accidentally applied to a college EA in violation of Stanford's SCEA, because that school changed from rolling to EA after she had submitted her app. Once D discovered the problem, she withdrew the EA app. But the GC, who had sent out her recs to both schools, did not seem to know, or if she did, she did not tell my D about the problem.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>it is a big problem to accept terms and then ignore them. It is dishonest>></p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I know I'm taking this part of the comment out of context...but this is how I feel about ALL of the students who are posting that they got accepted ED but "gee...we can't afford the college". The answer to the affordability question should have been somehow determined REGARDLESS of what the school awards for financial aid...BEFORE the decision to apply ED. You know...schools accept ED students because supposedly those applying ED are indicating that this is their NUMBER ONE choice and they will attend if accepted...period. It is my humble opinion, that folks whe back out of these acceptances are in effect gaming the acceptance system. It's just not right...and these kids ARE taking the place of students who apply ED and DO plan to attend. Yes, the schools will fill their seats in the RD round...but these ED applicants who "back out" should have done their homework. There are tons of financial aid calculators out there that will at least give you a ballpark estimate of institutional financial aid. Students should discuss finances with their parents. If the student is hoping for a GREAT finaid package in order to attend....and the parents can't help out...I believe they should NOT apply ED unless they are certain they will receive aid (income very low, no significant assets AND the school meets full need).</p>
<p>The ED agreement does have the failsafe clause of being able to back out if the financial aid package is not acceptable. If a student wants to take that chance, that is fine, in my opinion. It is no fun to go through the paces and risks of backing out of ED regardless of the reason. Even if you have an earth shaking reason, you can inadvertently get penalized. If you want to take that risk, go right on ahead.</p>