Visited Colleges? Help Me Get D22 Started With a Good List

College Search & Selection
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Given what you’ve said about your daughter, I am not sure that GWU or American are good fits, apart from the urban environment. They both are much bigger than what she appears to be interested in.

So many students have a dream list of wants that are similar to your daughter’s. Compromise is the best way to ensure she has a good list. Being honest, I think location is one of the easiest compromises to make.

Most kids on CC say they want easy access to a city or a place to grab a coffee. Not unreasonable, but it’s crucial for students to understand that the campus is where their food, friends, and beds are. It’s why so many good colleges offer great activities on campus. Sure, kids might go into the city, but nowhere nearly as much as they think they will. I would encourage her to put location low on the list of priorities and be very open to schools that are not strictly urban.

I like the sound of several colleges already mentioned. I’m a fan of LACs, personally. Macalester, Rice, Kenyon, Bates, Tufts, Skidmore, Occidental, Claremont consortium, Haverford, Bryn Mawr, and Connecticut College might be worth checking out.

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Macalester campus culture is very liberal and social justice issue driven.

Minneapolis/St. Paul is a liberal city, not unlike Seattle.

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Wow I hopped on briefly yesterday to make one reply then came back today with lots of good stuff! Thanks everyone!

@thumper1 Thanks for the info and your daughter’s perspective about Santa Clara University. I’m not familiar with it but I’ll definitely have D22 check it out!

@Eeyore123 I had no idea that George Washington didn’t have dining halls! I mean, I’ve never looked into it but I’d never heard that. Very interesting and something to explore more.

@coffeeat3 Thanks for the heads up about Barnard open house. And it’s so interesting to me that you know so many young ladies who applied and were accepted. According to Naviance, no one from D’s school has ever applied, though the school is only about 11 years old and I’m sure that the top school in the district has had applicants. My older D applied but was homeschooled her last two years. Anyway, thanks for the info about the applicants’ stats and how test optional fared in that pool.

@ukelele37 Thanks! I’m afraid all of those schools have too low acceptance rates to be considered true matches but she’s going to take a looks at all of them.

@annegp Congratulations to your daughter!! That’s so exciting! My older D and I both really loved Mac (not sure if I count but I’m adding my thoughts here). We visited twice, though students weren’t on campus the second time because it was over last year’s break around New Year’s and it was to go back and interview. There’s a coffee shop and bookstore we visited that was caddy corner from the campus, and the walked the other direction to the cutest little bakery/restaurant for lunch. I think it’s next door to a Patagonia shop. It’s a small campus with a small footprint, but that’s one of the things my older D loved about it. She sat in on a neuroscience class and loved it. It was small and all of the students were really friendly to her and also engaged with the professor, and the professor was really welcoming. She got the feeling that the students were nice, enthusiastic, involved in a variety of activities or internships, but not super competitive. That was just her view based on limited interaction with two different tour guides and the class. Ultimately she decided that she wanted to be closer to NYC (even if 3 hours away) and Skidmore had a better ballet program for her to continue to perform but she loved Mac. It seemed to have really wonderful opportunities for internships in the area with support for students to find them. Congrats again!

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I am a bit confused about what your daughter is seeking & about her abilities–although top 3% is a very strong indicator of work ethic & intelligence. (For example: Her expression of self-doubt & posts in this thread ruling out Vassar & WashUStL due to high standardized test scores, but considering test optional Stanford.)

With or without submitted standardized test scores, her application packet will include teacher recs, comments, & assessments.

What size of school–in terms of number of students–is your daughter seeking ?

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@Twoin18 Thanks for the safety reminder and suggestion. It’s hard enough to find matches but I"d really like to find a safety other than UT, which would really only be a safety for admission and not necessarily for her academic interest.

@gardenstategal I don’t think she’s taken a look at Pitt yet so will have her take a look. Some of the others you’ve mentioned are on her long list already. Thank you!

@Motherprof Sounds like your D20 felt the same about Mac as mine. Glad to hear she’s enjoying her time at Kenyon! It seems like a terrific school as well.

@Lindagaf Yes, D’s dream list of characteristics isn’t really that unique or particularly long, which makes it hard in a way. And I agree that location is an easy compromise compared to learning environment.

I’m also a fan of LACs, especially after visiting about 15 with D20, several of which are on your list. D22 is definitely interested in Tufts, which is test optional for 3 years, but she knows it’s a far reach like Rice would be. Her dad is a Rice alum and he’s always bummed when the amazing kids he interviews aren’t accepted. I’m not sure she even wants to apply because of it!

Thanks for the suggestion of Connecticut College though! I’ll pass that on!

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I think that it is natural for parents to prefer LACs because of the thought that their child will be given more individualized attention in a cozy & nurturing atmosphere. While this scenario may or may not be realized (and certainly has negatives), an equally important factor is what does the student want.

The fact that your daughter wants access to a big city may indicate that an LAC is not her preference–but it depends upon why does she want access to a major city such as NYC, Chicago, or Boston. Sometimes kids want the chance to be anonymous & sometimes young adults want the opportunity to experience the excitement of the unknown in terms of people, places, & events.

In short, what does your daughter want in terms of school size & why ?

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@Publisher Well she’s not exactly sure what she’s seeking yet either because she’s really just starting her college search. Even though she’s taken surveys to help her find the criteria that are important to her, until she really dives in to examine the schools I think it’s hard for her to truly know which ones matter most. So for now, I’m just trying to help her find some additional schools that aren’t yet on her radar and get feedback that she can’t get herself because of non-existent campus visits. I was just hoping to get some ideas based on posters’ personal knowledge.

I really didn’t mean to indicate that she has strong self doubt. If anything she’s actually very confident, just not cocky. I think she’s just self-aware enough to know that she’s likely not the smartest kid in her class but she believes she’s smart enough to do whatever she wants to do. And I didn’t intend to rule out those schools; they just don’t seem to fit the definition of match or target based on low acceptance rate (especially Vassar for a female), and finding matches and safeties was really my goal of this original post. Her standardized test scores are still an unknown, and she’s never scored a 99th% on the PSAT when she’s taken it at school every year, though she’s never really studied for it, so I just don’t know if we can count on her scores coming out at that level. (Edited to add: she’s been a solid 95-96th%ile scorer on the PSAT since taking it every year since 9th grade. Our district gives some variation of it in the fall but she’s never studied for it).

As for Stanford, I just meant that if it were to be test optional again then perhaps she’d throw her application in as one of her high, nearly impossible reaches, but that was more like a “who knows” kind of thing. She’s never actually mentioned Stanford.

As for the rest of her application, I think her teacher recs will be excellent based on unsolicited emails I’ve received from some of her teachers about her and her abilities. I don’t think she’ll get a rec that says “best in my lifetime of teaching” but I do think she’ll have great recs.

At this point she’s seeking schools that are less than the size of University of Texas at Austin, which she views as huge.

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Davidson College just north of Charlotte…University of Rochester…University of Richmond

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I think that I understand your daughter’s “self-doubt” and do not attribute it to being female.

I know & have known many students who were straight A students achieved through hard work & intelligence, yet were not “brilliant”–especially so regarding creative intelligence. And I know & have known many who are brilliant with screaming creative intelligence, yet were not great students in terms of class rank/grades earned.

P.S. Is your daughter adventurous ?

Or does she prefer the comforts of familiarity ?

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@Publisher I definitely do like LACs because of the perceived nurturing atmosphere at some but I also like them for students who want to have research opportunities early in their college careers. The LACs I visited with D20 seemed to offer a lot of that, especially because there aren’t graduate students competing. But I imagine that larger institutions have opportunities as well. They just might take more effort on the student to find them. I do think if this D wants to pursue something like that then she’s the type to go knock on doors and ask, whereas my older D was not because of her social anxiety. She needed to have a relationship with a professor first but based on several experiences this D has had, she’s pretty fearless in that respect.

I agree that an LAC is not necessarily her preference. I’d say she’s willing to consider one, and her “dream” school happens to be one, but that’s more about location and all that it offers as opposed to it being an LAC. I don’t think she wants anonymity. She’s an involved kid and wants to be involved in activities on campus, and I think a city offers places to explore.

Yes, I’d call her adventurous but I’m not sure how you define it. Do you mean in terms of her wanting to travel to a foreign country or do you mean being willing to venture out into a city alone? Or wanting to go skydiving? She’s someone who would probably want to do all the above, though she knows I’m terrified of heights so she probably wouldn’t go skydiving out of respect for me. :grin:

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Two completely different thoughts here, so I’ll do them in 2 posts.

It doesn’t sound like your D lacks confidence, just that she’s realistic about herself. She’s clearly smart and hard-working. The star athlete on the high school team probably knows whether she’s got a shot at qualifying for states, nationals, or the Olympics! While “smart” is a bit different because there are different kinds of smart, it sounds like she’s saying she doesn’t want to kill herself just to keep up. As long as she’s not putting herself down, this sounds mature and grounded.

The beauty of college is that you can focus on what you do best, so if she’s worried about the kids who grasp multi-variable calculus concepts in seconds, she doesn’t have to “compete” with them. High school, in contrast, requires the kids to do it all. So she really only needs to excel in a smaller realm. So in that regard, she should do fine with reaches.

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Thank you for your response. Very helpful.

I think that it is incorrect to assume that LACs provide more or better research opportunities for undergraduates.

Seeking an occasional respite in anonymity is all that I meant.

Your daughter seems adventurous in my view based on your response. And I think that the desire to be within walking distance of a major city supports my interpretation.

LACs offer an easier transition from high school to college, in my opinion. National Universities offer more to the student in subsequent years.

It is easy to find LACs attractive when visiting, and it is easy to be overwhelmed when visiting large universities. Fortunately, schools come in various sizes and are not relegated to being small (under 2,500 students) or large (over 10,000 students).

My best guess is that your daughter would find a rural or semi-rural LAC too confining &, eventually, a bit claustrophobic–a sentiment often expressed by LAC students on other websites (once one gets past the obvious posts by the admissions personnel).

P.S. Contrary to what some may assert, I am not opposed to LACs; I just believe that fit is most important & creating awareness of where one fits is not always easy or obvious.

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My second thought is about LACs and cities. In general, the fact that there is so much to do off campus in a city means that kids spend less time on campus. The energy of the campus is diminished and the tightness of the community decreases. It doesn’t mean kids don’t have friends and don’t have fun, but school itself isn’t necessarily at the heart of it. And for most kids who go to urban schools, that’s exactly what they want. As you know from visiting LACs with your older child, it’s not just about the classroom experience but also the immersive community. What is nurturing to one kid is stifling to another.

In the lac environment, you’ll get a lot of encouragement to match your interests with opportunities. At bigger schools, not simply urban ones, there may be more opportunities but it’ll be up to you to find them and “win” them. A friend calls this "being a student entrepreneur ". So your D may also want to think about how she would feel most comfortable making the most of her experience.

Just some food for thought.

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Totally agree with all of this. Another thing to consider is that students spend a lot more if the college is located in an expensive city. Just something to budget in or be aware of.

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@gardenstategal Yes, this is it. You’ve explained very well what I was trying to say.

And your comments about LACs in cities and LAC environment make a lot of sense. Definitely important things to consider, and I’d be guessing if I knew what her preferences or feelings about that would be. This helps to give ideas to discuss with her though. Thank you for your thoughtful posts!

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There seems to be an unstated assumption in some of this discussion that LACs are not in big cities. But isn’t the student’s “dream school” of Barnard a LAC in a big city (and also one whose relationship with adjacent Columbia mitigates the common LAC disadvantage of more limited upper level courses)?

The hard part may be finding less selective schools with all of the desirable-to-the-student attributes of Barnard.

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FASHION INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY!

My son says that although many of his friends are the smartest kids in the school, he is not - he is a notch below them. But he got into a top school, because of solid academic performance in the most rigorous classes, and very high achievement in his extracurricular focus (music). He has a decent social IQ, and is just a very nice young man - everyone likes him. So this is not just a girl thing. His comparison of himself to others in his grade is realistic. At the same time, he understood that his very high extracurricular achievement might vault him into a top school - and it did.

When people are not sure what they want to study, I recommend that they go to big schools, with tons of majors. That way, they’ll have many choices. It is definitely possible to make a big school feel smaller, by going to office hours, and reaching out to teachers. Years ago there was an excellent article in the NYT on the theme of “What I Wish I’d Known in College”. The biggest point was to take advantage of office hours to get to know the professors.

Your daughter is in-state for Texas. As such, she should take a very close look not only at UT Austin, but the other top UT’s. One of them might be the perfect match for her both financially and academically. As for getting accepted into a major, at most schools it is possible to move into any major, as long as one does it early, with very high achievement in the intro level classes that are open to all.

Considering “match” schools that are big, have lots of majors available, and are in vibrant cities. Northeastern and Boston University in Boston, Tufts as a reach. George Washington and American in DC (but Georgetown is a possible reach for her, too). Drexel in Philadelphia has gotten much bigger - it’s not just for engineers anymore - and it’s on a campus that has essentially grown right up to Penn’s campus. Penn of course would be a high reach for her. Barnard and NYU are both good reaches in NYC. Fordham would probably be a safety, but not in a great area. If she’s willing to look at flagship state U’s out of state, U Md is a good big school, a commuter train ride from DC. U Mich has everything and the college town feel (although Ann Arbor has gotten bigger than that).

And with her strong interest in fashion and business, what about Fashion Institute of Technology in NYC? Honestly, with how into her fashion-related business she’s gotten, I think she’s sure to get in. It would be a safety for her, yet in NYC, in the heart of the fashion world, and it’s a bargain, even out of state.

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As ever, @Publisher , I have to refute some of what you’ve said. Nurturing is a good thing at an LAC, but no one is greeting kids with a teddy bear and a book of bedtime stories on move in day :wink:.

IMO, I don’t think an LAC is an “easy transition from high school.” Quite the opposite in many cases. Because students get to know profs, many quickly learn that they can’t get away with substandard work. They KNOW the people who are teaching them. LAC’s are not “college-lite.” It can be hard to hide at an LAC, but being small doesn’t mean that everyone has to know everyone else’s business, it doesn’t have to mean that students can never have anonymity, and it definitely doesn’t mean the college has to be claustrophobic.

It is just as easy to argue that a university, especially for underclassmen, doesn’t offer students the opportunity to engage in meaningful interaction that is important to developing good critical thinking skills, that universities are impersonal, that universities are anonymous and offer generic education from professors who don’t teach much, if at all, because they are too wrapped up in research. Hubby and I both attended large unis, and my son is currently at a large uni. I strongly believe the quality of education my daughter received is superior to ours.

A student can fit at any type of school, if it’s the right school for them. Judging from the posts in the college life forum about kids who feel they aren’t at the right school, it’s pretty clear that kids from all types of colleges can feel they don’t fit in.

As far as research, I will say unequivocally that every student my daughter knew at her LAC who wanted to do research found plenty of research opportunities without difficulty. If anything, I think being at an LAC helps students become very proactive because they have to make an effort to seek those positions. BUT, the college can make it much easier for the student to get those positions, especially when dedicated alumni stay in touch with departments at their colleges. . My daughter found a position one summer by “cold-calling” a professor at a university in another state because she was interested in the work he had been doing. She received a fellowship to do summer research at that uni. She was also offered a summer research position from a prof at her LAC. LAC students are not competing against grad students for research positions.

Finally, I will say that I do not feel, at all, the grads from uni’s fare better than grads from LACs. Grads from all types of colleges can have great outcomes post grad.

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Much depends upon the particular schools under consideration whether an LAC or a National University combined with the specific student.

Too often I am mischaracterized as anti-LAC when I am not.

In short, specifics matter.

P.S. I should have made more clear that my use of the term “easy transition” is not a reference to academic work; it is a reference to school size, campus size, & red tape.

P.P.S. FWIW What I tend to dislike about LACs is the smallness in terms of number of students, lack of grad students & graduate programs, lack of opportunity for anonymity, & cold, rural isolated locations. What I do like is the near necessity to study abroad to get a break from the small town atmosphere. I also like LACs for athletes who want to continue competing in more than one sport & for athletes who are not DI level.

I dislike the lack of meaningful diversity.

Also important to note that one can make a big school small, but cannot make a small school big. This applies to a variety of aspects & activities especially with respect to social activities.

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It’s not an LAC, but definitely check out the University of Rochester if looking for undergrad research. They’re a medium sized school and excel at it. I’ve wondered why students who aren’t interested in research go there TBH.

If looking at LACs, be sure to look at exactly what research is being done there. Students from my school who have chosen LACs sometimes come back wishing they had selected differently because there aren’t as many options and what options are there can be competitive to get into. If a student knows they want to research X and the school has it, it’s more likely to be a good fit.

It’s not necessarily true that LACs have more discussion based classes and things. That really depends upon the professor - and students. My U Rochester grad sat in on some LAC classes (visiting with friends) expecting to be unprepared and out of place due to not having been in the class before or done the readings, etc, only to find out students were more prepared and there was more discussion in his own classes, not those he was sitting in on. He hasn’t sat in on classes in every LAC or at his own school, but we’ve both come to the conclusion it’s professor dependent, not “category of college” dependent. Two of mine went to LACs and loved them. Neither one wanted to do research or be at a larger school. They liked small and had no interest in research. Different kids, different preferences. Good results for all three.

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